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From the lens David Lindahl Review : Apartment House Riches Bootcamp : RE Mentor Company.

  • Lan Levy May 29, 2012 @ 4:34 pm | delete
    Dave Lindahl is just a ...book seller (he is even disclose it in his material, he considers his stuff "entertainment" and asks people to treat it as such!). You can be one too. If you use the correct buzz words that most of the "gurus: are using and if you copy other "guru" material, whom themselves ...copied it from yet ...other gurus", you too could become a gure..the ral sad truth about 99% of these "gurus is that only a handful of them actually purchased and sold real estate. most of them are just story tellers, and Lindahl is just one of them, his stuff is a story you could tell to a 5 year old, but not to a real investor. his stuff is worthless, cheesy and lack any substance whatsoever. YOUWILL NEVER "partner" with him, since all he does is ...selling books and cd's and NOT real estate, this is why he will never "accept" any offer you may have, since he will not know what to do with it. As a matter of fact is is fully disclosed in his disclosure material. he himself states that is material is for ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSE only and should not be used with the help of a ..professional. Good luck guys
  • bri May 24, 2012 @ 12:17 am | delete
    I wonder if Lindahl is more of an internet marketer He has put out a book on how to internet market.
    http://www.amazon.com/The-Six-Figure-Second-Income-Successful/dp/0470633956/ref=cm_rdp_product

    taken from the marketing for the book: The Six-Figure Second Income explains how to start or grow a business even when you think you have plenty of strikes against you.

    In the course of building an eight-figure real estate information marketing business, David Lindahl and Jonathan Rozek tested dozens of tools and techniques. This book is centered around principles they derived from all the tests they ran, tools they used, and money they spent."

    So I wonder if this discredits his courses? Or is the marketing just separate from his knowlege of real estate? Did he make his money on real RE INVESTING or on RE INFORMATIONAL "bootcamps" and books???
  • Frank Jul 28, 2011 @ 7:11 pm | delete
    I am looking for any investors with great deals to partner on. If you have a good deal submit it with Austin Davis's team at www.creprogram.com and get it setup with them.
  • Missy May 30, 2012 @ 1:35 pm | delete
    I have done deals with Austin's team before. Send me a message with your contact info. I would be happy to look at your deals.
  • Casey Apr 14, 2011 @ 6:01 pm | delete
    I have bought David Lindahl's Apartment House Riches book and program and thought it was ok. I have bought about everyone's program out there in commercial real estate. His was ok. They are all similar I think. I tried his partner with him program option as well but didn't get any of my deals accepted. I've read around on other sites too that people are having trouble partnering with him. I wouldn't have paid the thousands of dollars if I knew I wouldn't get to partner with him. I still liked his program and his material, but without the partner option there isn't really any reason to spend more money on his stuff over others without it.
  • John Apr 13, 2011 @ 10:06 am | delete
    I went to his bootcamp and it was pretty good, but the partner with him offer I have not ever had accepted. Every deal I have sent him has not been accepted to partner up on. I gave up.
  • Sam Feb 16, 2011 @ 4:25 pm | delete
    His biggest competitor Monica Main has taken a lot of his business. He even tried to sue her to shut her down. I think their coaching programs are about the same - they charge a lot and deliver little. As for the content of their programs though they are about the same.
  • maria Feb 19, 2011 @ 12:44 am | delete
    i have not heard of her before i will check her out. so you dont think the mentoring programs are worth the money then? any ideas on how to learn without them?
  • Donna Mar 19, 2011 @ 1:49 pm | delete
    i have bought her program and davids they are both very similar. you can get them on ebay often too for davids program. monicas is only online but its much cheaper
  • Marci Apr 11, 2011 @ 6:15 pm | delete
    i have her program and davids program and also austin davis's program. monica and davids program are good how to get started and on the basics and cover a lot of everything. austins program is just on how to get funded and puts you in with partners on deals but does not have a outline on all the basics.
  • Frank Jul 28, 2011 @ 7:13 pm | delete
    ya i got austins program too, are you a member of his program? have any deals you need a partner on?
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:09 pm | delete
    i have not bought his program or done his bootcamp but have been to his hard sell free seminars. it was exciting and fun and the speaker (who i thought was going to be david) but was some other guy who was a past student focused on how great apartments are and how much money he is making (which is true i think and sounds great) but they did not share how to do anything and the entire thing was a hard sell to come pay thousands of dollars for a bootcamp. I was disappointed as I did not drive all that way to hear some sales guy sell me something. I came because it was advertised Davis was going to be there and teach. I was also shocked that the event was promoted by a real estate leader of a group I belong to so I trusted that it was going to be a legit event worth my time. It was not. I dont know if they knew it would be like that or not but I sure would not want to put my name behind a speaker that does not show up for his own seminar and send some sales man to push a hard sell to spend thousands of dollars on a bootcamp. For all I know David may not have even showed up at the bootcamp. And after reading all the stories of people paying thousands of dollars to go to his bootcamps to partner with him only to get the run around after they do all the work to find the deals sure does not make me want to work with his team. I would however consider working for his team if they dropped the high cost for it all. I dont expect them to work for free, but if they are really making all that money and are going to make a lot of money from me bringing them deals why no charge a few hundred to pay for the hotel or place for the training and teach people. I would be a lot more willing to try that out. So far I have found private investors to help me buy deals but they dont have a lot of money for big deals and they are slow to make a decision on deals. I would love to find some good sources for investors.
  • sherri Jan 25, 2011 @ 11:58 pm | delete
    i bought his program and later bought his competitors program from monica main after i read a blog on a lawsuit where he sued her to try and shut her down for stealing his program he said. i didnt think that her program was a copy of his, but she covers all the information like he does in his program, but i sure wish i had found hers first as it was only $100, actually i think it was $98 or $97, i dont remember exactly, but it was the same theory etc. just a lot less. i did try to work with her on her partner program too, much like davids but havent had any luck yet in finding a good deal. i think you pretty much just have to partner with other investors who have property and get them a good deal. you can read her review at http://www.squidoo.com/monicamain
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:10 pm | delete
    what was your experience with monica main? i have not heard of her before. i will check out that review. please share your experience about her
  • carrie Dec 30, 2010 @ 7:47 pm | delete
    davids programs will not give you any real advantage as far as i am concerned over other gurus offering nearly the same training material at a much lower cost. i found a lady named monica main who david actually tried to sue to shut down as her stuff he thought was just like his stuff but at 1/10 of the cost or less. while she has people who dont like her mentoring programs either just like david they all pretty much have the same training stuff and once you have that you can start looking for deals and putting them togeather and present them to investors. squidoo has a review on monica too that tells a lot about her programs. what ever you do dont drop thousands of dollars for boot camp training with any gurus as you wont get any more access to partners on deals than simply doing up your deals and presenting them to investors. ive yet to meet one investor who went to his bootcamps who said it really helped them much other than giving them a motivational boost.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:11 pm | delete
    what was your experience with monica main? i just read the comment by sherri she said she bought monica mains stuff too. did it work for you?
  • Charles Sep 5, 2010 @ 1:22 pm | delete
    I paid over $5,000 for everything while trying to work with David, but never got an apartment. I looked into learning more about the lady above who he sued that also teaches on how to buy apartments and bought her program, its very much like his program, but was not a grand. Its a digital download though, but I just printed it off and read through it, im working with her now although am skeptical if its going to work. I think pretty much you have to find your own private investors and money to get anything done, these gurus just take a lot of money for working with them and you dont get any better results than if you have any regular wealthy investor, but these gurus have so many people coming to them they blow you off it seems. If you want a good base to understand the apartments business davids program does do that well, but working with him is a joke. Or better yet just get monica main's program and print it off, its a lot cheaper, once you know your stuff then you can pursue investors direct, thats what i think im going to have to do.
  • V-Inn Sep 2, 2010 @ 11:48 pm | delete
    Hey guys, are there any students who have taken the coaching or bootcamp, and are now purchasing apartment complexes? no matter how big or small. I'm looking for feedback. I'm not looking for, " feel good" reviews, only those who actually put the teachings into action. know of any? thanks.
  • carrie Dec 30, 2010 @ 7:54 pm | delete
    buy his program on ebay and get others programs that arent very expensive like monica mains, but dont buy their coaching, mentoring, bootcamps, etc. as they are over priced and once you have the knowledge of the stuff and find deals all you have to do is present the deals to investors. if you have a good deal a investor will be interested in it. ive not ever found a program that will plug you into their investors without wanting thousands up front which makes no since... why charge you thousands of bucks for something that is hard for them to find and makes them hunreds of thousands of dollars! the reason is because gurus make lots of money on students who pay them for this but what re the gurus doing other than taking your deals to their investors and likely making a referral fee on top of your bootcamp fee! investors want good deals and if you have a good deal post around looking for a investor they arent that hard to find.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:13 pm | delete
    good idea i will check ebay
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:12 pm | delete
    no i have not taken the course yet. did you decide to take his course bootcamp? did you get to partner with him on a deal?
  • V-Inn Sep 2, 2010 @ 11:48 pm | delete
    I haven't taken any of Lindahls courses yet, but I did talk to one of the coaches. I think the best way is to find out WHO's taken coaching, and actually implemented the materials. I've been to several different bootcamps of others, and they always throw 'coaching' at the end anyways. and about Lindahl partnering up, I believe it has to be a huge deal, before he'd want to partner up with any of us. That's what I was told. It won't just be any regular deal, can't be doing it for small potatoes.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:13 pm | delete
    ya that makes since. i dont want to do a small deal. i want to do a big one to make it worth my time
  • V-Inn Sep 2, 2010 @ 11:47 pm | delete
    Hey Lynn. I'm at the point where I too am considering taking coaching. I noticed that you already have. I'm planning on purchasing my first property to cashflow, just to get my feet wet. I know my problem already, is that I'm located in California, so I told them that I would prefer properties out of state.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:14 pm | delete
    ya I hear there are not good deals in california. what states are you looking at?
  • Ian Jul 6, 2010 @ 11:12 pm | delete
    I bought his program to partner with him but none of my deals were ever accepted. I gave up.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:14 pm | delete
    did you find anyone else to partner with ever?
  • Jeremy Jun 6, 2010 @ 3:31 pm | delete
    hey Kelly did you get everything in his program on ebay and is it the new version? im interested in getting a copy but want the most up to date version, do they have those on ebay?
  • Lenny Jun 4, 2010 @ 4:29 pm | delete
    I have not bought his program yet but just found out about him reading a review of monica mains apartment program. I am interested in his bootcamp if he will really partner with me on my deals, but am skeptical if his bootcamp really would get me in the door to partner on deals. From what I have read he sued Monica Main because her stuff is a lot like his, I dont know if it is or not as I have not bought his program, but if I already have the same stuff for the $100 I paid with Monica Main's program I sure don't want to drop $1,000 to get the same stuff again with David's program. I have tried her partner program but am not happy with it, and really need to find someone to put up the cash for my down payment on deals. Has anyone actually partnered with him on a deal and not had to put down any money of their own?
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:15 pm | delete
    im going to have to take a look at her program you are the 2nd or 3rd person who has commented on her program
  • Kelly Jun 2, 2010 @ 5:11 pm | delete
    I was able to get his program on ebay for more than half price. Plus you can resell it on there when you are done with it.
  • Mark Jun 1, 2010 @ 2:10 pm | delete
    I bought his home study course and thought it was well put together. I have not been to his bootcamp.
  • Kelly May 30, 2010 @ 9:49 pm | delete
    My partner and I signed up for his bootcamp to partner with him on deals, we have yet to have any deals we presented to partner with that we felt met the criteria be accepted. We are looking for other investors who can put up the cash for us on a deal as well.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:15 pm | delete
    did you find anyone who will partner with you? i have a few deals i need a partner on too
  • Adam May 21, 2010 @ 10:27 am | delete
    I have heard a lot of success stories from Dave's students and I have also heard stories about people that haven't gotten anything done since attending one of his events. It seems that he's providing the ways to learn HOW to do the deals, you just have to be the one to actually IMPLEMENT them. Friends of mine seem to think that if they pay $3,000 for a course that it will automatically come back to them tenfold. You have to USE what you learn and continue to work at it. Real estate doesn't just fall into your lap and make you rich, or else everyone would be doing it.

    With that said, what Dave says makes sense, with the economies of scale and so forth, so if you are truly going to get into real estate (and not just dabble and pitter-patter), I say go for it.

    Read "Think & Grow Rich" before you make any decisions, and that will help you decide whether or not you are going to actually make a move into real estate or a different way to make your "millions"
  • Jess May 20, 2010 @ 8:45 am | delete
    Im looking at his bootcamp or home study course and trying to figure out if it is a good one to go with. It looks like he has a large staff to help, but also looks like he is spending a lot on hype/promotion/marketing which makes me skeptical.. almost seems like a late night tv infomercial and Ive tried those before without any luck. No one in my investor group has ever done any commercial deals, but several of us are really interested. Who else does everyone suggest?
  • Lenny May 13, 2010 @ 10:57 pm | delete
    Does anyone have a copy of his home study program they will sell me?
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:17 pm | delete
    no but it looks like people are getting one by a monica main that is similar or using ebay to get it cheaper. if you got a copy of either has it worked for you?
  • Hal May 11, 2010 @ 9:18 pm | delete
    I was not impressed with his program. It is much like other apartment teachers, but for a lot more money.
  • Marci Ward May 8, 2010 @ 12:50 pm | delete
    My partner bought his home study program and we both went over it and thought it was a good start. Heard too many stories on blogs and forums though about his partner program to fork out $4k for a bootcamp - the only reason we would go to it is to partner with him but it does not sound like people have been able to actually partner with him. Does anyone know any other investors who will partner with students?
  • Martin May 5, 2010 @ 1:49 pm | delete
    Where do you find the cities and dates he is coming to for the free weekend event?
  • Shawn May 4, 2010 @ 4:15 pm | delete
    I did not get to meet David either at his free weekend event, but the event for being free I thought was worth my time. I didnt buy the bootcamp they were selling, but did get to meet other investors and found that to be valuable as well. If your lucky enough to go to a free weekend event he puts on it is a great way to meet other apartment investors.
  • Greg May 3, 2010 @ 4:34 pm | delete
    Save your money you can get basically the same course from monica main for $100 bucks instead of $1,000 from david. They both have a partner program and id say your chances of one of them partnering with you are about the same.. not too good.. your going to have to work on getting your first deal on your own or with a buddy. There are so many deals right now every gurus has so many people bringing them deals to partner with that you are just not likely going to see one actually work on a partner deal. Thats my opinion and Ive tried both.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:18 pm | delete
    wow a lot of people are talking about monica mains program on here im going to have to check it out. did you have any luck with it? did it work?
  • John Apr 30, 2010 @ 12:39 pm | delete
    I forked up the money to go to his bootcamp.. I have yet to buy a property.. it is not so hard to learn how to buy.. you do however need funding to do your deals and none of mine I have wanted to partner with Dave on have ended up being bought.
  • Ryan Apr 26, 2010 @ 11:23 am | delete
    I bought his home study course and thought it was ok, but it was pricey and not that different from other courses Ive bought.
  • Ryan Apr 13, 2010 @ 10:18 pm | delete
    Ive been to his bootcamp and was satisfied with the training. It costs money to make money.
  • Lisa Apr 10, 2010 @ 7:26 am | delete
    I went to one of his free weekend training seminars last year and loved the energy from the speakers, but they did go over kill on the hard sell to buy the bootcamp. Who has actually partnered with David on a deal? Everyone I talked to who had been to the bootcamp said they would partner with me since they can partner with David, but no one had actually bought a property yet in partnership with David. Im skeptical about paying $4k for a bootcamp to have to partner with him - why cant I partner with him if I buy the home study kit and go through it?
  • Alan Apr 10, 2010 @ 12:59 am | delete
    I'm planning to attend Dave's Phoenix boot camp 4/20/10-4/23/10. Anyone want to partner-up and split the cost? Alan: bunny-ranch at hotmail.com
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:19 pm | delete
    hey alan how was the bootcamp? did you get to go? did you partner on a deal?
  • Bill Apr 8, 2010 @ 8:39 pm | delete
    I bought his home study program and it was helpful, but I have not been able to buy an apartment building yet.
  • Kathy Apr 6, 2010 @ 9:58 am | delete
    Does he ever have a sale for his bootcamp? Im thinking I could do $1,000 for it and wanted to know if that is something he has ever done them for before?
  • Kip Apr 5, 2010 @ 11:13 pm | delete
    I would like to hear from his students who have partnered with him. Do you really get to buy a property with no down payment as his partner when you go to his bootcamp?
  • Juan Mar 28, 2010 @ 1:11 pm | delete
    Yah I agree with everyone saying his free seminars are a great place to network.. they are free (well as long as you dont buy anything) and you meet some really great investors at them to network (many who come for the same reason just to network with others).. its free and you can also win free stuff which is cool
  • Karl Mar 27, 2010 @ 5:25 pm | delete
    I read his book he published and thought it was pretty good, but I have not yet gone to his bootcamp so cant comment on it. His book is worth reading and its pretty cheap.
  • Don Mar 26, 2010 @ 3:19 pm | delete
    You can get a good start in apartments by buying monica mains program on apartments. David actually got really mad at Monica though for using his name in her google ads and tried to sue her for using his name as she was taking lots of his clients away (she charges $99 and David charges $999 - a big difference). The lawsuit details are at http://www.squidoo.com/David_Lindahl_vs_Monica_Main and you can read more about Monicas program too. David and Monica both have a money back guarantee, but its hard to beat $99 bucks for a program. The thing I would be most interested in with David is if he really partners with you and puts up the money on deals so you can get 50% ownership, but Im skeptical if that is for real or how many deals he can do before he runs out of money to put down.
  • Gary Feb 8, 2011 @ 4:20 pm | delete
    oh boy if that isnt a red flag being sued by david for stealing his students. now im going to have to check it out. thanks for sharing that
  • Rick Mar 23, 2010 @ 12:00 am | delete
    ive always thought david seemed like a nice enough guy and did go to his free seminar.. but i expected they would try to sell stuff.. i didnt buy anything but felt like i got some from it and i met some other investors too.. great place to network with other investors
  • jill Mar 21, 2010 @ 4:05 pm | delete
    i really liked his home study program, yes it is expensive but it is good info and will give you a strong base to start from. if anyone can find something just as good or better for less money id be surprised. it is a good home study course
  • Tony Mar 21, 2010 @ 9:02 am | delete
    I like going to his free weekend seminars he does for free to network and meet other apartment investors and people looking to get started. Id never actually spend thousands on his program/bootcamp as you can get the same stuff for a few hundred from other apartment gurus and his partner program from what ive read is not as easy as he makes it sound, but you wont find a more motivated group of people at them to get into apartments. I just take a handful of business cards and during the break walk around and hand my card out to people. For the newbies I tell em Im looking to buy properties and to call me if they find any good deals and Ill make it worth their time. Ive had people sell me their properties that way and newbies who go do all the hard work for me in finding good deals and then when I buy the property I just pay them a percentage of the cashflow. My own partner program and newbies love it cause its free to them. I have money already to do enough of my own deals and investor backing, but as a newbie I really dont know about some guru just giving you 50% of a property just for finding it for them. I may consider it if someone brings me a heck of a deal, but to do it on every deal well I just dont know how or why David would do that. And Im highly skeptical of the fact he is charging thousands just to come to a few days boocamp to partner with him, I offer to partner with people free if they find a good deal or give them some cash flow on average deals. Why would I put a price tag of thousands on partnering with me when I want those big deals? I see too many newbies get milked of tens of thousands from gurus. His seminars are great for networking, just be prepared at the free ones to be hit hard with the sales pitch and they really do trigger your emotions to want to run and buy buy buy.
  • Joe Mar 20, 2010 @ 10:20 pm | delete
    im not a fan of david, i spent over $5k on his stuff and ive yet to be able to get any apartment building.. maybe im just too dumb or dont get it but i tried hard as i could and zip
  • Lynn Apr 19, 2010 @ 8:47 pm | delete
    I followed Kyosaki for many years and for those of you who are familiar with the term, "Got out of the Rat Race," I got out of the rat race using Mr. Kyosaki's teachings. He is an absolute blessing. I did a Dave Lindahl boot camp and 6 months with a Dave Lindahl mentor. I'm with Joe, maybe I'm just too dumb, but I haven't been able to pull off a single purchase since I switched from Kyosaki to Lindahl. Mr. Lindahl's billing/office staff treated me like absolute dirt. And, his sister is at the helm of that office staff. She is very unprofessional in many facets. His brother is also involved in the company and seems to be a bright, well intentioned, accomplished individual. No, he does not seem to really partner with his students. I have come to believe that his partnering with students means to join one of his syndicates and pony up your money into his apartment building purchases. I did learn a massive amount about apartment buildings, syndicates, management of real estate, reading multi-family financial statements, etc. Mr. Lindahl is brilliant and has sacrificed a personal life to build his businesses. His accomplishments are inspiring. I have well over $10K invested into training, not including travel expenses to the trainings. Again, maybe I'm too dumb, but this system just hasn't worked for me. A few hundred dollars spent with Robert Kyosaki has provided me with a decent lifestyle, living independently from real estate monthly cash flow. Mr.Kyosaki gives solid, grounded financial advise. If I can ever get my act together in implementing what I learned through the Lindahl Training, my future will be much more prosperous. I'm rich in real estate education now, but what remains to be seen is what I'm able to do with it.
  • Lynn Apr 19, 2010 @ 9:00 pm | delete
    No, Dave Lindahl does not really partner with his students. Based on what I've seen if you have a deal that is so ridiculously so far out of this world, he'll be there. For an ordinary deal, no. He basically solicits students at his paid trainings to join hi syndicates and put money into his apartment building purchases. If you have money to invest, maybe that's a good idea to do! I spent well over $10K on mentoring and trainings, not including any travel. To date, I have not rec'd a return on my investment at all. I have been very successful with Robert Kyosaki's systems and spent only a a few hundred on Kyosaki books. I also purchased Kyosaki's board game and live soley off from monthly real estate cash flow as a result. Carlton Sheets had a great program that gave me some nuts and bolts. Dave Lindahl is incredibly knowledgeable. I learned so much from him. I just haven't been able to implement my Lindahl education and I'm not really sure why. I learned alot from my mentor but again, haven't been able to get things under motion with the Lindahl system at all. My wealth of knowledge is immense from the trainings, but won't do any good if I can't figure out how to use it. If I could do this all over again, I really don't think I would spend this kind of money again, when a few hundred dollars on Mr. Kyosaki's books solved my life crises (literally).
  • tony Mar 20, 2010 @ 9:33 am | delete
    I think David has got too big and the money for "seminars" and "programs" and "bootcamps" has got to him. I've talked to other investors who have also been to his stuff and he seems to always tell you just enough to keep you hooked but never enough to break free from "needing" him to do your deals and of course paying more money. If it was on partner deals that makes since, but it is on his programs and teaching stuff that he always wants more money. I really wish he would reduce his prices, I dont mean for free, but how about $1000 instead of $4000 for a bootcamp, so people can afford it. Yet that is still good money. And $1000 for a home study kit, there are people selling kits of a fraction of that with just as much stuff in it. Plus his books at amazon are packed full of stuff too and really cheap.
  • JS Mar 15, 2010 @ 10:51 pm | delete
    I went to his bootcamp and forked up the money. I left really motivated and having a lot of confidence, but Im not really sure it was worth 4 grand to go. I have yet to get a property, but I am working on it.
  • Jesse Mar 14, 2010 @ 11:38 pm | delete
    I bought his home study program and it was really helpful. Id like to go to his bootcamp but I dont have the money.
  • Doug Mar 12, 2010 @ 12:59 pm | delete
    I went to one of his free weekend live events and expected to learn more. I did get really motivated and they energized me a lot, but it was about half the time a huge sales pitch for the $4,000 bootcamp. If I had $4,000 that would be great, but I cant afford 4 grand.
  • Mel Graves Mar 9, 2010 @ 1:08 pm | delete
    i have bought his home study course and thought it was pretty good, but i did think the $1000 bucks was rather over priced for it
  • Dan Mar 8, 2010 @ 11:00 pm | delete
    i couldn't bring myself to drop $4,000 on a 3 day bootcamp either, does he have a videos series you can buy though?
  • sam Mar 5, 2010 @ 4:34 pm | delete
    i had a similar experience, the weekend seminar was a hard sales pitch. i didnt pay for it and have been looking for a program though

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