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From the lens Gay Rights: A Summary of the Debate from a Christian Perspective.

  • dc64 May 29, 2012 @ 10:14 am | delete
    I was raised in church, and believed homosexuality was a sin. I looked at them as vile, debaucherous people who went against their natural selves. I believed what I was taught to believe, and I've heard the same Biblical arguments and verses time and again. After I started thinking for myself, I began researching the things that seemed illogical with regards to religious dogma. I began reading the Bible as if I had never heard of it before, and it became magical. I no longer believe in a tyrant God, but one of pure and complete love. the one Jesus modeled. I have been researching the question of homosexuality, and have come upon many sites where they go back to the original biblical manuscripts and what the words meant, where they go back to the culture of the day, where they go back to the way other gods were worshiped, and the christian homosexual community make a very solid case for themselves. I have still not found a traditional christian argument where they use the same method to rebut the homosexual interpretation of these scripture verses via cultural context and original word meaning. So far, the traditionalists are just repeating the same versus and presenting their argument the same way.
    As far as bodies not made to be compatible with same sex, that is true. Of course, if one wants to use that argument, one could say women should not give birth because of what it does to a woman's body. Stretch marks, stretched and loose skin around the stomach, pelvic floor damage, trauma to the birthing canal, excessive bleeding and threat of hemorrhage, not to mention the deaths associated with it in the earlier days.
    As far as statistics, I don't judge people by statistics, but by their heart.
    After all this, I am still unsure, but I am sure of is Love, in whatever form it appears.
  • WhitU4ever May 29, 2012 @ 1:23 pm | delete
    Hi Debra! Thanks for your comments. I'm not religious myself. In fact, I hate religion. It is a man-made thing that dries up God's pure love and intentions for us and is full of rules and forgets to consider matters of the heart and the relationship between God and man originally intended. Religion is a heartless practice. It denies that there is evil waiting to devour us and just makes it harder to find God in this world. It complicates everything and is responsible for the confusion we face today in the world. It contradicts Love, our faith and trust in God, Life, the Way, and the Truth. I would be very interested in reading the details of the research that has been done by the christian homosexual community that has so solidly convinced you that the God of the Bible accepts the practice of homosexuality. So, in your opinion, people who believe what the Bible says (who you think have it all wrong because they adhere to old interpretations of the scriptures) are traditionalists? And people who change it to suit their own lifestyle (which has been attempted throughout history since Adam and Eve) are a community of homosexual christians, with a small C? Hmmm... very interesting. So, what you are saying is that every Bible I read, in every version, is translated wrong from the original language. It should read that homosexuality is applauded by God, right? I'm afraid that is pretty difficult to believe. What proof do you have that this is true? Did you read it all of the scriptures presented on this page, as well as the commentary before and after? How do you draw these conclusions of yours from those verses? What does the original say? On the topic of the way our bodies are made, you think that choosing to be a homosexual can compare with choosing to bear children, both in spite of the "side effects." First of all, the body was made to have children, and I think that was your point, right? But you are also implying that the body was made to have homosexual relationships, and that both have consequences. I don't know about you, but I have given birth to three children, and my stretch marks are precious to me. The side effects of a homosexual lifestyle (multiple relationships, venereal disease and other physical symptoms, the inability to maintain long-term relationships, abuse, etc.) are not usually something women or men are proud of. These things are, in fact, usually kept private as they are a point of embarrassment, rather than trophies of sacrifice. Sure, women can take or leave child bearing, just as people can take or leave caffeine or a homosexual orientation. But child bearing is still a natural function that the body was made for. The same can never be said of the homosexual function and be true. There is no comparison. In your second to last sentence, Debra, you assume that I am the judge and that people are my target. Both are straw man arguments that couldn't be farther from the truth. This page was made BECAUSE of God's love for ALL of us... because it may just be true that God says those things to protect us from the horrible things we do to ourselves and each other. It IS true that God is not a tyrant and that God is love. God is also brilliant... way more than you and I are! So, with that in mind, don't you think that arguing with Him is perhaps in vain? A little tiny bit out of our league? I don't mean we ought not to ask questions and seek answers. But the more I search and the more I learn, the more questions I have. And the more I learn that God knows what He is doing. Look at the way mankind attempts to change the food we eat and the way we travel. Look at us now. Have we ever been so obese? I'm not saying every invention of mankind is bad. I love that I can write to you and get to know you just like this... via the computer! And I love that medicine has advanced so far that we can sometimes prolong a life or prevent disease. I love science and the telescope and use a microscope to see the tiny world that exists beyond the human eye. But I also love that God is good to EVERYONE... that the sun shines and the clouds rain on all of us, that the trees give us shade and food, that the animals and plants are beautiful, useful, full of wonder and delight, and they teach us so much about caring about and valuing life and about ourselves. As for your last sentence about Love. If the capital means the Love of God or God, who IS Love, then I agree, we should be sure of it. But if that Love is perceived to be equal with lust, greed, selfishness, or perversity, I would encourage testing Love, in whatever form it appears, to see if it is real or counterfeit before subjecting ourselves and our loved ones to its effects.
  • WhitU4ever May 29, 2012 @ 3:07 pm | delete
    Here is the test with which we should compare every form of "Love" that appears:

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.

    1 Corinthians 13:4-8
    New International Version (NIV)
  • LCTD975 Apr 21, 2012 @ 5:38 am | delete
    Thank you for this lens!
  • WhitU4ever Apr 21, 2012 @ 9:13 pm | delete
    Thank you for visiting, LCTD!
  • Chrmdpoet Mar 25, 2012 @ 11:41 pm | delete
    "Two men went up into the Temple to pray. One was a PHARISEE, and the other was a PUBLICAN. The Pharisee stood up and prayed thus within himself: 'Oh God, I thank You that I am not like OTHER men are; robbers, extortioners, unjust, evil-doers, adulterers.--Or even as this PUBLICAN! I fast twice every week and I faithfully give tithes, one-tenth, of all that I get.'

    "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even lift up his eyes to look toward Heaven, but he beat upon his breast and said, 'God, be MERCIFUL to me, a SINNER!'

    "Then Jesus said to those around Him, 'I tell you the truth, that THIS man, rather than the other, went home JUSTIFIED before God. For everyone who EXALTS HIMSELF will be HUMBLED, and he who HUMBLES HIMSELF will be EXALTED!'" (Luke 18:9-14)

    Those who believed they were the most righteous, the most correct according to their religion, were in fact, the most wrong.
  • WhitU4ever Mar 27, 2012 @ 6:32 pm | delete
    His Word is powerful. Thanks, poet.
  • WhitU4ever Mar 28, 2012 @ 6:21 pm | delete
    Yes. Be reminded that this is not justification for sin. In other words, the justified man Jesus spoke of was first ashamed, remorseful and repentant of sin. He wasn't justified before God for being a sinner, but for asking for mercy and allowing himself to feel the shame of letting God down. It wasn't until he cried out for mercy that Jesus said he went home justified before God.
  • opheliakeith Feb 17, 2012 @ 8:08 am | delete
    Society changes and adapts to the needs of its people. We know more know than we knew yesterday. Once upon a time women could not vote, could not have checking accounts without their husband's permsission, blacks could be bought and sold, interracial marriages such as mine were illegal, children had no rights. The US is an evolving culture like every other but one of our most precious ideals is that we protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority. Good Christians know what they are supposed to do. It is past time they stop trying to dictate to the rest of us.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 18, 2012 @ 4:10 pm | delete
    Needs or wants, Ophelia? Did you read this? It is quite long. I would encourage you to revisit this site when you have time to read it all.This is not a comparison between black and white or men and women and their rights. This is talking about a lifestyle preference... Two very different things that cannot be compared. A sexual lifestyle is a personal choice, not something like color or gender, that cannot be controlled. Science has proven that there is no gay gene. Read Getting it Straight.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 18, 2012 @ 4:25 pm | delete
    Also, I agree that we have come a long way in America from slavery and oppression. But it is Christian thought that freed them. Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, William Wilberforce, etc., were moved to change these things because of their Christian faith and the awareness of what the Bible says about the intrinsic value God ascribes to ALL people, which was demonstrated through Christ and throughout history. Whether or not people acknowledge their value to God is sometimes another story.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 18, 2012 @ 4:33 pm | delete
    Let me restate that... scratch the word intrinsic. Our value exists in Him... because of Him. But because of our sinful nature, our value is not separate from him... or intrinsic.
  • opheliakeith Feb 19, 2012 @ 9:12 am | delete
    The point that I am trying to make is that whether you see it as a need or a want is irrelevant. I don't need to vote. I want to. It is not the responsibility of Christians to force their religious views on others. Your science is incomplete and misleading. There is no one gay gene but a combination of genes have been found to influence whether or not someone is gay.

    http://www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene

    Since 1993 studies have shown certain DNA markers on the chromosome that influence homosexuality, A genetic influence has also been found in mice .http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2010-07/has-gay-gene-been-found-female-mice The relevancy of whether or not homosexuality is a choice or a genetic fact has not been established,Sexual choice has long directed evolution. At its heart your argument is a religious one, despite how you may try to camouflage it, and as such has no place in American politics.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 21, 2012 @ 1:40 pm | delete
    The first link is about a study done by a homosexual geneticist, who has written several controversial books and is also a documentary film maker, whose latest documentary is also controversial. In the study you linked here, it uses twins for and if you read it carefully, you'll notice that there is only a ten percent difference between what he calls normal twin brothers and those who claim that they are gay. It doesn't take into account the rest of the gay population. They also don't all turn out to have the same strands of chromosomes in common, because the other 40-60% don't show the same results as those mentioned to have strands of DNA in common. And no one knows what traits exactly those strands are linked to. That's disingenuous. It is not proof that homosexuality is genetic. There is something wrong with the second link. You may want to re-submit it. I would like to see it.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 21, 2012 @ 3:13 pm | delete
    I see that the reason the second link doesn't work is because you need to pay for a subscription for PopSci magazine in order to access the info. No can do. Please find a free source of the information.
  • opheliakeith Feb 21, 2012 @ 5:23 pm | delete
    That's odd because I don't have a subscription and was able to read it. In any event, the science is beside the point I was originally making. There is nothing inherently detrimental to society if two consenting adults, or more than two consenting adults, want to have sex, regardless of gender. It may be detrimental to the maintenance of a Christian society, but that isn't really the problem or the province of the US government. Just because laws have been observed in the past is not a compelling enough reason to continue to observe them. Slavery was once legal too. Times changes. Always have, always will.
  • WhitU4ever Feb 22, 2012 @ 8:46 am | delete
    I understand the point you are trying to make, Ophelia. People are free to make their own decisions, but they ought not be fooled into thinking that it effects no one but themselves. Everything that everyone does effects someone else in our lives, in society, and in those we talk to online, in one way or another, even if it only changes one's attitude or perspective on the issues. This conversation effects you and I both, for example. Even secret things will effect a person's attitude or perspective, and eventually it is manifest in some way. The homosexual lifestyle takes more than one person, and the statistics of how many relationships a homosexual person has are not low. Usually, gay people go from one relationship to another to another. The average is eight partners a year. That's hard for other family members and not easy for those who were hoping for a longer relationship. And it is especially hard when children are involved. Saying goodbye to people becomes the new normal. That promotes this caution in those who have seen this pattern enough, including the children. They learn not to get close to those who are a part of your life; to keep their distance. It doesn't just happen with gay people, of course. Adults who are single and continually have one boyfriend or girlfriend after another with no serious commitments have the same kind of effect on their families as well. It is heartbreaking getting used to a new person as part of the family in a way, and then wondering where they went when the relationship doesn't work out. The stats on physical illness and abuse are worse than heterosexuals in homosexual lifestyles. The book I recommended at the beginning of this conversation covers these topics, all the stats, and more. It is well worth the read, for anyone.
  • Don_McCyclist Jul 24, 2011 @ 8:02 pm | delete
    Hmm! You certainly demand somebody digest plenty of stuff before commenting. I'm not going to claim to have read everything you posted, but from what I've read, I have to strongly dissent. I don't want to live in a theocracy. I want to live in a society that respects people with their beliefs but doesn't taylor make its laws to a particular religion. Thanks for sharing your point of view. May we keep talking and listening until we find some compassionate common ground!
  • WhitU4ever Jul 25, 2011 @ 4:43 pm | delete
    If you will kindly read the entire lens, you will find that this page does not advocate a theocracy or tailoring laws to Christianity, but in maintaining the laws we already have. Homosexual individuals already have the same rights as everyone else. They are already protected by the same laws that protect everyone. Take a look at least at the videos on this page. I don't hate gay people. I love them with all my heart. The problem is with some of the more extreme gay rights advocates who go out of their way to bring ruin to groups and individuals who disagree with them. I'm fine with the fact that you disagree with me. I'm not fine with you coming to my home and vandalizing my property because of my beliefs, or being arrested because I don't wish for my six year old child to be taught that marriage between a man and a man is healthy. The facts speak for themselves. Read Getting it Straight: What the Research Shows About Homosexuality.
  • AustinRick Feb 9, 2011 @ 3:15 pm | delete
    Good lens on an important subject.

    In all the talk about this subject from both (all?) sides, I have rarely, or maybe never, heard anyone make these three fundamental observations:

    1) No one chooses to be homosexual. Though there is not the slightest evidence that the "condition" is hereditary, or genetic in nature, it is certain that no one reaches the age of puberty and says to himself/herself, "Well, I guess it's time I made up my mind about this sex thing. Should I be straight or gay?"
    2) No one can be held accountable for their desires, at least not in this world or by other mortals. We can all be held accountable for our actions, however.
    3) It is specious to argue that homosexuals are denied the right to marry. Marriage is not a right in the first place. It is not a legal institution but a cultural one. It was not created by legislatures or any other organ of the state, therefore neither lawyers nor courts nor legislatures have any legitimate authority to meddle with it. They may say that they don't have the right to marry whomever they choose, but neither does anyone else. Most men want to marry the equivalent of an 18-year-old Sophia Loren and most women would prefer a 25-year-old Tom Selleck (though Sean Connery and Sam Elliott poll well with women over 40).

    I strongly recommend the book Brain Sex to get a clinical understanding of how men and women are "wired" differently between the ears. You will also learn the origin of the differences and what can interfere with them.
  • WhitU4ever May 14, 2010 @ 6:02 pm | delete
    By the way, Ducky-lurve, you are right about old blood-letting techniques. They are obsolete. But surprisingly, many doctors find that bloodletting using medical leeches is still valuable in certain instances. See FDA approves leeches as medical devices. The article tells about how medical leeches are used for skin graft patients quite successfully in aiding the healing of the grafts. I've also heard of medical leeches being used to increase circulation after amputee surgery. Perhaps you should find a better ridiculous practice to compare with Christianity. I can find plenty to compare with homosexuality, but I'm not called to be hateful or bigoted. I am certainly biased, but not against homosexuals, color of skin, or people with different opinions than my own. It's okay to disagree. I discriminate between right and wrong, and it is the Bible's description of what is right and wrong, not the mistakes it talks about that many before us have made, that I use as my measuring stick.
  • Ducky-lurve May 13, 2010 @ 3:51 pm | delete
    I myself am not religious. I believe in science and fact, not faith, however I respect your right to follow whatever religion makes you feel complete. I however do no approve of anyone spreading hate for any reason. When two people love each other enough to vow to spend the rest of their lives together that is a beautiful thing, and no one should have the power to tell them they can't.
    This book that you site was written thousands of years ago by people who wanted to their society to thrive, therefor, if two people could not procreate, then they should not be together, this is also the reason that birth control was not considered acceptable.
    You really need to look at the true history of the source that you are siting and realize (and I am sorry if this offends anyone) that it is simply a book. Since this book was written many things have changed. Doctors today do no still believe in bloodletting because today we know that it is a ridiculous practice. The same is true for the bible, we have had many scientific discoveries since it has been written, and most of it has been proven impossible. Please do no use an ancient outdated text as a tool to spread hate.
  • WhitU4ever May 14, 2010 @ 2:20 pm | delete
    Ducky-lurve, thanks for your comments and for your efforts to tolerate Christians. I have some questions for you. Do you feel that it is right for a first grade school teacher to invite her class on a field trip to her gay wedding? Do you feel it is right to fire Miss California if, as a Christian, she answered honestly regarding gay marriage? Do you feel it is right for a gay couple to sue a church pastor for refusing to marry them? These are the issues that this lens is most concerned about. As for using the Bible to help those supporting gay rights to understand the issue from a Christian perspective, how can I not do that? If not for the Bible, there wouldn't be an issue. Not only that, but I bet you didn't know, or refuse to believe, that the Bible is the foundational book for many laws here in America and in many countries around the world. If not for the Bible, sodomy, child-molestation, rape, polygamy, incest, and every other disgusting illegal act or shameful act that is outlawed would be perfectly okay. Is that what you want? Where do we draw the line? Should we do away with lawmakers and laws altogether, so that nothing can be considered shameful, sinful, illegal, or bad? So that we can do anything we want without risking guilt or shame? If there is no God or moral code built into our consciences, why should we have laws at all? Let's just do everything and anything we want to each other and to ourselves. Is that what you want?

    Contrary to what you think, Christians base their beliefs on more scientific facts than atheists do. It takes a great deal more faith to believe that people and animals all came from one cell, than it does to believe that God (an intelligent Spirit with no beginning or end) is responsible for our existence and that every living thing produces after its own kind. For example, dogs having dogs is something we can see happening today. That takes no faith to believe. We see it happening right before our very eyes. So, the Bible's statement is more believable than Darwin's which says people came from a single cell billions of years ago. Yet, the billions of years is not proven and there is not a shred of fossil evidence, nor are we even able to turn monkeys into people.

    Please take the time to read everything on this page. I think you missed some very important facts. For example, did you see the statistics regarding the likelihood of gay couples to have only one partner at a time, let alone stay with any partner for longer than two years? It's just not likely. Especially male gay people have an innately insatiable appetite for new partners. Multiple partners does not make for a loving, life-long relationship. And it's certainly not good for children, let alone adults... that goes for gay and straight couples. It is a proven fact that children need stability, as well as adults. Having to say hello and goodbye too many times grows calloused hearts, rebellious children who feel like they have to grow up too fast, child-like parents, etc.

    Before you assume to know why the Bible was written and when, I think you need to read it first, and research why and when it was written. I did, and this is what I found:

    The Bible was written over a period of 1400 to 1800 years by more than 40 different authors. It is a compilation of 66 separate books, divided into two primary divisions: the Old Testament (containing 39 books) and the New Testament (containing 27 books). It is believed that all of the books of the Bible were written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit (God).

    The reason it was written should be clear after reading it...

    1. That we might believe on the name of the Son of God. I John 5:13

    2. That we might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. John 20:30-31

    3. For examples for us to learn from and for our admonition. I Corinthians 10:11

    4. So that we should not live by bread alone. Matthew 4:4

    To assume that I haven't "looked into the true history" I cited from the Bible, well... it made me laugh. You see, I have actually documented bits and pieces of my research regarding the validity of the Bible (and so much more of what is written within its pages) here on Squidoo, such as: A Short Introduction to Biblical Archaeology, The Importance of Biblical Manuscripts, Messianic Prophecy and Statistics, Gary Habermas, A Short Introduction to Biblical Archaeology.

    I just gave you more than three links to pages filled to the brim with one example after another supporting the validity of the Bible. So, when you say that the Bible has been proven impossible, I have one question for you: Can you give me three examples of how the Bible has been proven impossible? My guess is that you cannot, but go ahead and give it your best shot.

    I suspect that your statements are based upon things that others have told you, but that you have never looked into with any serious determination. Perhaps you have been indoctrinated in high school or college? Perhaps even your parents were and they were happy to help the schools pass on the rhetoric. I highly recommend, if no more than for your entertainment, that you take a look at the videos on this page: David Horowitz. This man exposes the liberal indoctrination of our universities high schools, and now even elementary schools. Have you seen or experienced some of the things that the kids in the videos on this page, Educational Attrocities?

    We live in a crazy world, but contrary to what the far left would have you believe, it is not because of Christians, religion, or conservatives. It is because of the godLESSness and lack of education that is permeating the culture of America, Europe, and other nations rejecting the One True God that was sent to rescue us from ourselves. Take it or leave it, but it's the truth.
  • WhitU4ever Nov 14, 2008 @ 1:15 am | delete
    One man reponded to this lens by accusing the church of doing nothing to combat poverty. Where has he been? Obviously not church. FYI: The church is the number one friend of the poor, the destitute, the enslaved, widows, orphans, victims of natural disaster, victims of the sex trade, prostitutes, alcoholics, drug addicts, the homeless, etc. The church offers recovery programs galore, builds homes for families who have none, provides shelters, jobs, food, clothing, and necessities for the homeless and orphans near and far. Until the enemies of the church manage to completely stifle them, the kindnesses of the church always have and always will outnumber the acts of benevolence of all other people groups worldwide. See: Who gives to charity?
  • amandascloset0 Nov 12, 2008 @ 8:17 am | delete
    Another great lense. Also the book you have listed by Janet Folger is also an amazing read.
  • LucyVet Nov 10, 2008 @ 4:25 pm | delete
    Well-researched lens. I admire you for stating at the beginning that you do not wish to foster hate or the 'us and them' mentality that discussion about this so often degenerates into. Interesting lens, well done!
  • WhitU4ever Nov 7, 2008 @ 10:31 am | in reply to susannaduffy | delete
    Christians are only asking for their constitutional rights and freedoms to be upheld, not to legislate the Bible into state law, but to continue to uphold the existing fairness, ethics, and morality in our state laws and our federal laws, according to the constitution. The videos and Biblical text are here on this lens to show everyone what the Bible actually says because non-Christian groups, including homosexuals are known for rewriting scripture to validate certain behaviors that have never been accepted by God according to scripture. If the validity of Bible translations is in question, I have already made a lens called Biblical Manuscripts that covers all you need to know about just how accurate today's translations are. For more info, visit Messianic Prophecy & Biblical Archaeology
  • susannaduffy Nov 7, 2008 @ 12:19 am | delete
    Interesting lens. Particularly interesting as so much content is from the bible. I understand that many people believe this book to be a holy book irregardless of what version or translation is popular at any given time in history (anytime from the 4th century to the present) and I respect peoples' rights to believe this. I don't wish, however, for anyone to base a state legal system on it. I respect your honesty in stating your feelings (and I assume you allow others, those who don't have your particular book, to do so as well) and I appreciate the time you have spent in putting this all together.
  • AslanBooks Nov 6, 2008 @ 8:53 pm | delete
    Another lens well-done.
  • WhitU4ever Nov 6, 2008 @ 8:49 pm | delete
    In Nigeria, Christians are being martyred and killed. John, if you are not a Christian, you go there and help the Christians who are dying. If you are a Christian, I don't wish death upon you as you seeemingly have wished upon me. Please correct me if I am wrong. Look forward to hearing from you.

    In order to get the full story about Nigeria, please copy and paste these links into your browser and read these articles:

    http://www.1cubed.com/display.php?ID=35&sectionID=32

    http://www.crosswalk.com/1345865/
    [in reply to AKISE JOHN]
  • CherryShrimp Nov 6, 2008 @ 8:07 pm | delete
    I give u a 4 stars vote for this lens as I can see that allot of effort is put in to publish this lens.
  • AKISE JOHN Oct 14, 2008 @ 5:52 am | delete
    THE CONCEPT OF IMMORALITY IS COMMON IN NIGERIA TODAY, WHAT ISTHE CHURCH DOING ABOUT IT?

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