by 13 people |
Religious debate about God
That means that in advance he knows what we will do.
If He knew yesterday that today I will do the laundry - am I free to NOT do the laundry today?
There is a conflict between our assumption that we have free will, and God's all knowing nature (as seen by Christian and Muslim theologians).
So, what do you think... is God all knowing?
Does God know all, everything, the future, the past, your innermost thoughts?
Fetching blurbs now... please stand byYes, of course. Being omniscient is one of the divine attributes of God
Fearlessf8h says:
If I have already seen a movie and I know how it ends that does not mean I forced any actor to make a choice or impacted the outcome of the movie. I believe God is not limited by time and space and therefore can view the past,present and future simultaneously. It is something akin to an ariel view with a road below.
Posted June 20, 2009
Alyssa says:
I agree with peaceinjesus. When most of us talk of an all knowing God we try to fit "all knowing" into our perception of the term. Maybe all knowing is like what Pastor T said, that he just seems to know all the possibilities we will choose. Frankly, I think of it as God gives us opportunities we can choose from but He knows which one we will choose. Now how does that interfere with free will? Our choice may not be what He wanted, but He will let us do it because we have free will.
Posted May 27, 2009
peaceinjesus says:
How stupid we are to try and understand the mind, emotion, feeling, and knowledge of God. If we say we understand God, we may as well BE God. That's not possible though. We are unmistakably human beings who make mistakes. Is it not possible that just maybe God "knows all" but doesn't interfere with our choices unless we allow Him to? After all, God doesn't force you one-sidedly; you have the choice.. He just knows what choice you will choose, but it's not by His doing necessarily.
Posted May 14, 2009
Farah says:
Yes because God iss without time...he does not see it as "what you will do...or what you did". By saying this, we restrict God to the natural laws that we as humans are bound by...
Posted May 10, 2009
Tracy says:
Faith does not require proof; that's called Science. Funny thing...Biblical Christianity (not the twisting and pulling out of context, but scripture in its entirety, in context, and taking into account history and culture, just like atheists and pagans do), supports itself completely. The Bible is the Bible, yet there is a plethora of scientific THEORIES that contradict each other. Hmmm, and people have trouble wrapping their minds around an all-knowing, eternal creator. Well, of course; that's because we are human, limited. No one argues with that, right? While non-believers make the claim that Christians are irrational, illogical, and unthinking, we can safely say that LOGICALLY, even in our every day lives we encounter those who know more than we do. Just because we don't know it or can't see it, does not mean it doesn't exist or isn't possible. It's not a matter of proof. If we depended on proof, this means that we rely on our own understanding. Since we can all acknowledge that our understanding is limited, why is it so difficult to accept that an omniscient being is in control? Those who KNOW God, who have relationship with him (Lia, we pray because we speak with those with know and love; we don't neglect those we know and love because they already know us) understand that God is a loving father, not a sadistic mischief maker who enjoys making us uncomfortable. It is a comfort to know that HE knows all. He don't have to hide. His omniscience is a blessing, not a curse. Just like with anything else, please be sure to know your "facts" before attempting to discredit. Truth is truth, whether we believe it or not. Your disbelief does not change God. Lack of understanding is not a automatic disqualify God's omniscience. People used to believe the world was flat; did our lack of understanding change the characteristics of the globe?
Posted April 21, 2009
Pastor T says:
vbrigt 105 - of course you can't actually know your daughter will go to work tomorrow because she has her own freewill to make that decision. What you know, by knowing her, is that she is most likely to go BUT she could be taken ill, have an "issue" at work today and become depressd tomorrow - & many other possibilities that only she can know. So, does God know exactly what happens tomorrow or just the infinite range of probabilities & possibilities. And, if God knows that your daughter is going to work tomorrow and that there wil be a gas explosion in the building, will he stop her going?
Posted April 18, 2009
Dany says:
By God knowing everything from the start. Only means that he know things. By us doing things through free will doesn't mean that, just because God knew what we would do doesn't mean that he caused us to do them. If I know you like ice cream doesn't mean I caused you to like ice cream by knowing that.
Posted March 18, 2009
Donna says:
Even if you waiver between doing the laundry and watching TV God sees that! God is not limited by time, he has already seen all the moves you will make and the fact that you will eventually do the laundry (or not!)
Posted January 19, 2009
sandoy says:
God is all knowing and all powerful. God is not in anyway carnal in which a reason why science can't prove his existence. We have free will, we make our own decisions and choices in life and it has nothing to do with His greatness. He has wondeful plan for us (Jeremiah 29:11) and for us to make the right choices and achive the plans that He has for us, we have to make a choice to give our lives to Him (Romans 12:2).
Posted October 20, 2008
No, who can be all-knowing?
kit says:
Just to add
"If I have already seen a movie and I know how it ends that does not mean I forced any actor to make a choice or impacted the outcome of the movie. "
True, but if the actor is simply following a predetermined script, he then had no choice in his characters actions and it would be unfair to punish the actor simply because he had to play a character who god didn't like. If Brad Pitt plays the part of a murderer in a film, that does not make Brad Pitt a murderer.
Posted June 23, 2009
kit says:
to use my favorite example, if god already knows the story of my life, even before all the events have happened to me, then i am simply a character trapped in it, and if it says "he will watch a film tonight" or "he will sin in such a way" then i am have no choice but to do the as a simple character in the "story" and have no way to disobey it
Posted June 23, 2009
Joey says:
Who are we to claim to know anything of the nature of the All?
Posted June 04, 2009
Lexie says:
I understand that one of our assumptions of God is that he is all-knowing. However, i am a firm believer in free will and dont want to say that we dont have free will. I would rather say god is not all-knowing. I believe that God knows all of our possible choices, and all of the options open to us, an dteh consequences of each choice we could posisbly make, but he doenst know which decision we will ultimately make. that decision is ultimately our own, that we make of our own free will
Posted May 27, 2009
Jordan says:
I believe I have free will. If I am right, than an omniscient god does not exist (see above argument). If an omniscient god does exist, than I have no choice but to believe that I do have free will and that there is no such thing as an omniscient god.
Posted May 08, 2009
Chris says:
Look, the Judeo-Christian God couldn't exist! Its logically impossible! A more Hindu idea of God is best/probable. (The many Gods are ways of relating to the true God: Brahman-The Universal Soul). As for omniscience, the many Gods can only know the past, present and possible futures. Still, Brahman only really counts and has no 'mind' or even attributes that can be described.
Posted March 13, 2009
Lia says:
if God is all-knowing, and knows our innermost thoughts, then why do we pray?
Posted February 03, 2009
Alan McDougall says:
If god knows everything about everything he must get bored out of his mind
He is a creator and a creator creates new things
Alan
Posted November 19, 2008
Lee Young says:
if God is all-knowing, then he should now how is he going to cause rain later. But this means that he can't change his mind to not make rain later because if he changes his mind, initially (now) he doesn't know whether he's going to make rain or not. Thus, he's not omnipotent!
Posted September 22, 2008
Chris says:
If God knows the future perfectly, then life is 100% fatalistic. We are only free to do exactly whatever it is that God knows that we will do. Logically, the Calvanists have the upper hand in this; however their theology portrays God as a monster who has already decided which of us to spare and which of us to torture forever.
Lucky for me I'm not a Christian so I don't have to wrangle with it!
Posted September 15, 2008
Logical fatalism
a definition
Logical fatalism is the idea that because we can say something about tomorrow that might turn out to be true, the future is already determined today.
Theological Fatalism
Theological fatalism is the idea that an All knowing omniscient God knows today what will happen tomorrow - and so the future is set. Because the future is determined in advance, we as individuals can't do anything about it.
The Divine Attributes... Who or What is God?
More religious debate
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What is God? What's SHE like?
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I'm not personally invested in believing in a personal God. For me God is something impersonal, all encompassing and in everything. But what do YOU think? This is a religious debate with room for all points of view.
A philosophy lens
So: If you don't understand, don't worry: I made this lens precisely because I didn't understand the topic just yet. Philosophy is meant to make you ponder and think - that means confronting stuff you didn't understand at first.
I try to keep things as simple as possible in this lens, but I can't guarantee that everybody can understand what I'm talking about. Do ask any questions you might have in the comments. I will try and answer them.
The Philosophy of Religion: An Historical Introduction (Fundamentals of Philosophy)
by Linda Zagzebski
The Philosophy of Religion: An Historical Introduction (Fundamentals of Philosophy)
Amazon Price: $29.65 (as of 07/06/2009)
This is the book that started me on this lens. We read it in our 'philosophy of religion' class at Leiden University - and this subject is one of the ones Linda Zagzebski tackles very well.
Philosophy books are never easy, this one isn't either. Still, it is very interesting.
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God knows us - solution no.1
Middle Knowledge / Molinism
This leaves my laundry up to the certainty that I will be doing them - even if I didn't know I would in advance. It means that it has been determined in advance what I will do - and that means my free will is effectively an illusion.
God outside of time - solution no.2
Boethian Solution (Boethius and Acquinas)
But some philosophers say: God doesn't know in advance, because he isn't in time. He just knows - looking at our path from outside of time. He sees where we were and where we are going all in one glance - as if from a mountain top.
In philosophy every solution creates its own problems. In this case:
- If God is outside of time, can He interfere with us at a certain time?
- If God is outside of time, does he know what time it is?
God gives up some omniscience so we can have free will - solution no. 3
I like this solution, but I do think it's a bit strange.Some modern theologians say that God is in time, just like us. And because He wants us to have free will, God freely gave up his omniscience so that we could have free will.
This leaves God in the position to have a relationship to each of us, answer prayers, and act WITHIN TIME.
And if God is alknowing, does that mean we don't have free will?
Omniscience implies the future is set. Does this mean we don't have free will?
If God knows all, does that mean our actions are determined in advance and we don't have free will?
Fetching blurbs now... please stand byYes, our free will is an illusion.
Alph4d0g says:
If I'm playing chess with myself and know my own next move, I have created that outcome haven't I?
Some say "God knows all possible outcomes but chooses not to know which outcome will be chosen". There are at least three problems with this conclusion:
1. it has no explicit basis in the Bible itself
2. it contradicts the definition of omniscient: knowing all (rather than merely having the *ability* to know all)
3. God is also omnipresent (having limitless presence through space and time) and therefore has already observed the outcome
Posted March 19, 2009
Paul says:
If God knows all, then He'd have known before He created anything at all what would follow as a consequence of His creation. So each of us would be predestined to go to one of Heaven or Hell irrespective of choices we might make in our lives. So what is the point of creation in that case? Why all the evangelism?
My view is that God know's all the possible paths each of our lives may take through space and time, and all of the possible interactions, but He doesn't know which choices we will make.
Posted January 27, 2009
bgamall says:
I believe that God is the one with free will. I believe that all of us are fallen and therefore we are subject to the wrath of God. Therefore grace and mercy is selective, that is, God chooses who to save. This is both a merciful and disturbing truth. It is merciful because it could be that God would have saved none. It is difficult because family could be lost, loved ones could be lost. That is exceedingly difficult. But what has been written has been written.
Posted November 10, 2008
spirituality says:
I agree with Whiteoak that there are consequences for our actions - whether one believes in God or not. In theosophy, Buddhism and Hinduism this is called: Karma. Whether that impacts our free will is debatable and goes beyond the subject of this lens. Maybe something for a future lens?
Posted May 18, 2008
WhiteOak50 says:
But is "free will" really free when there are consequences?
We have the free will to do what we want, but if we do something against the grain (so to speak) there are consequences of the action.
Posted May 18, 2008
No, God knows what we will be doing. We still have free will.
Joel baller says:
No god just knows what we are going to do, he knows our hearts; that's it
Posted June 19, 2009
Tiddledeewinks says:
We have our free will to decide what choices we want to make, but there are laws of the universe in place if we break those laws we must suffer the consequences. For instance, if you kill someone or steal, commit adultery etc. that is your free will, BUT you have taken away someone elses free will in doing so. Then it is only fair you should suffer some consequence, or the other persons free will was in vain. What goes around, comes around (karma). I still just don't understand why God does not always intervene for the helpless (like hurting animals and children). But, justice WILL be done eventually, even though the offender thinks at the time he/she thinks they got away with it.
Posted May 21, 2009
John says:
Yes we do have free will, God sees the choices we have and he knows the choice we will make, but even if it is wrong he wont stop you from making it unless you ask him to, we know right from wrong and good from bad. God is all knowing, lets put it like this: God is a barameter(measure humidity to tell the weather) he can tell the weather but he doesnt make it happen, he knows it will rain but doesnt make it rain(this is just an illustration).
Posted March 08, 2009
Shawna P says:
We do have free will... I think that all this questioning of God is stupid. When it comes down to it, its about faith. When God created us, he gave us free will.. In order to give us free will got created us morally good & morally evil to give us free will because if he took away us performing in a certain matter, then we wouldn't be free.. GOD IS all knowing.. HE KNOWS You more than ANYONE! He doesn't "plan" what we are going to do, he just knows us so well that he knows the choices we will make in EVERY situation. I AM A FIRM BELIEVE OF GOD! And If you are too, and letting people interfere with your beliefs, then you need to go back to church and just pray because the DEVIL got a hold of you! GOD BLESS!
-sHAWNA
Posted November 20, 2008
Alan McDougall says:
Yes god can be allknowing and still llet us have afree will. God can do anything yes? Then he cancreate us and look away and look at what we are doing behind his back from time to time
And then if he does not like what he seen burn us in the refining fire
Posted November 19, 2008
SadieCope says:
We know our own children and what they will do and what path they will take. Yet we don't determine their actions for them. I think it's the same with God. He knows us very well, better than we know ourselves. Just as we know our children better than they know themselves.
Posted September 29, 2008
futurmajic says:
Before saying there isn't a god out there "God" must first be defined. And then remember, there "is" something out there. We are here for free will. The difference between here and where we truly are, is great. Don't veiw God or even our true selves as someone next door, it is more like in a different universe.
Posted August 13, 2008
PositiveChristian says:
The omniscience verses freewill argument seems very silly to me. Why should my freewill stop God from knowing what I will do? It is possible to know about something without controlling it. God's omniscience and our freewill are perfectly compatible.
Posted August 06, 2008
a thought says:
If you've seen a movie before, just cuz you know what happens next doesn't mean you're controlling the action.
Posted July 30, 2008
The_Homeopath says:
We have free will, even if *something* already knew the *future*, it wouldn't matter how we came to our choices because they would still be ours.
Posted July 06, 2008
So - free will or not?
This is for those of you who don't want to type into the duel boxes.
More philosophy of religion links
- Metaphysics Philosophy > Modern Theosophy
- A selection of articles on metaphysics, by authors like H.P. Blavatsky, W.Q. Judge and many others.
- Buddhist Philosophy
- Articles on Sunyata. The terms Sunyata (or Shunyata), void and emptiness are synonyms in Buddhist philosophy. They are ways of expressing the sense that all we see, feel and observe is relative, in fact non-essential and not self-sustaining.
Terminology
I have tried to keep philosophical terminology to a minimum. Still, I have to learn it, so here are the terms I feel are necessary for me to talk about this subject at the level expected at university.Counter-factuals of freedom
The premise that in a certain circumstance each being will freely do what God knows they would do. If something else were to be done by a being - God would have known that too (counterfactually true).
God choose to create that creation in which the total result of laws of nature plus choices of beings is the best of all possible creations. That must be the creation we are in - apparently God cannot choose a better creation than the one we are in. Free will combines with evil directly, apparently (if there is a loving, all powerful God in the first place).
[Zagzebski, p. 116]
Fatalism versus Determinism
Determinism is the idea that there is no freedom from the law of cause and effect: the future is determined by the past and the present or other causes (like God or Gods).
Fatalism is a common attitude amongst those who don't feel they can influence their life. It's a case of self-fulfilling prophecy: if we don't think we can change our lives, our lives are obviously not going to change.
Determinism can easily become fatalism. If you think that drinking problems are caused by genes, for instance, you are more likely to just give up trying to fight alcoholism.
It's another story if determinism includes the choices we make, and the impact those choices have on our options. After all: working hard leads to results - there is a law to that as well.
Philosophy of Religion Books
Philosophy of Religion: An Introduction
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Amazon Price: $43.40 (as of 07/06/2009)
Science and Religion: A Historical Introduction
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Amazon Price: $19.75 (as of 07/06/2009)
Reason and Religious Belief: An Introduction to the Philosophy of Religion
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Amazon Price: $52.95 (as of 07/06/2009)
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Tiddledeewinks wrote...
If we have free will to take someone elses free will (murder or theft for instance) then shouldn't there be consequences?
Posted May 21, 2009
spirituality wrote...
in reply to Starkman That's interesting - whose definition is that?
Posted April 30, 2009
Starkman wrote...
Omniscience is classically defined as follows: God knows all things that are true and believes nothing that is false." Note: there is nothing (not even a hint) in the definition of "omniscience" that either mentions or suggests that God must have knowledge of everything we will ever think, say and do. In other words, God doesn't have to know that kind of knowledge in order to still be omniscient. He must only know what is true and believe nothing that is false.
So if God made the world in such a way that it would be impossible for Him to know every thought, word and deed--this He did when He created us with free will--then a) that doesn't create a problem at all for God's omniscience, and b) He would isn't the least bothered by this!
I Just wrote my first lens on this very subject. It won't show up for another day or so, as I understand here's the link if you'd like to read more: http://www.squidoo.com/OpenTheismAndReality
Thanks,
Starkman
Posted April 29, 2009
e_barrett wrote...
Definitely a good lens. And I think does a good job presenting the various sides of the arguments. What always strikes me is how charged up people get about this issue. I think it's an interesting discussion, but I'm not convinced the answer (one way or another) ultimately proves (or disproves) anything. I tend to believe God exists outside of time. But I also admit, I am looking at God from a finite frame of reference with very, very, very limited knowledge. What I do know is important is how we live our lives, and what we believe. So while I think it's useful (and very interesting) to have viewpoints on topics such as these, for me, I'm not so sure it's the be-all and end-all of questions.
Posted March 25, 2009
dustytoes wrote...
Great lens and made me think about something I find unexplainable. But God is God and his ways are not ours...I don't think we always have to understand. I love your lens!
Posted March 08, 2009
Margo_Arrowsmith wrote...
Interesting thread, but its hard to answer either/or questions about God and free will.
I am not sure my dual answer showed up so here it is again. "Well, in no way that we could understand, however, we have much less free will than we could imagine. That we ever break out of the progression of history, even for a moment, I think is proof of free will and God. "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which you have to do." Carl Jung" ***** to you>
Posted January 01, 2009
futurmajic wrote...
Yes. If there was a God who controled everything, all would then be Gods life, of which we are a part and we are all.
Posted August 13, 2008
PositiveChristian wrote...
An excellent lens highlighting a very common but, in my opinion, flawed argument. God's omniscience and our freewill has never been a problem to me. Why should the two not be compatible?
Posted August 06, 2008
spirituality wrote...
Ah, now I get your point. I changed the 'no' answer a bit, so you would have felt included :)
Glad to see this got you pondering - that's the whole point. ;)
Posted May 22, 2008
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