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Did this lens make you think about the nature of GOD?

From the lens Is God Omniscient ? If so, do we have free will?.

Tell me what you thought of this lens. Too hard? Too simple? Did it make you think about the nature of God - (if you believe in a personal God at all, that is)?

  • miaponzo Mar 26, 2012 @ 2:31 pm | delete
    I am well aware of the nature of God.. and I'm glad other people know it too :) Blessed!
  • http://secondjobfromhome.com Nov 2, 2011 @ 5:44 am | delete
    God Is the Purest Energy
  • Anon Oct 30, 2011 @ 5:59 pm | delete
    Psalm 147:5 Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite.
  • karmicchristian Jun 10, 2011 @ 5:23 am | delete
    Certainly yes. :)
  • Philippians468 Jan 10, 2011 @ 6:53 am | delete
    His Ways are higher than our ways, His Thoughts are higher than our thoughts. yet this i know. He loves us all.
  • VivianAldana Dec 15, 2010 @ 8:35 am | delete
    Unless you are God, then you are not able to answer the detailed questions about when and how. These questions are simply a distraction to the truth. God is God. There is none other. Revelation 1:8 says, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." That is truth. Pure and simple!! Amen
  • DreamNaut Nov 29, 2010 @ 1:12 am | delete
    First of all God is omniscient. God knows what you are gonna do at any given point in time. Just because God knew ahead of time you were going to choose the steak dinner, does not negate your free will .. You still chose the steak dinner and are responsible for your actions. Just because God knows you are going to sin in the next 5 minutes, doesn't exempt you from choosing to sin, you still pay the consequences for it, as you chose to of your own free will :)
  • merrychristmas Jul 30, 2010 @ 4:00 am | delete
    ewashington fails to answer to answer the basic premise of this question. I don't think anyone would argue that God knowing what I might do before I do it means that God has to cause my action. No, the question is, how is it possible for God to have always known what I would do if He has not caused my action?
    If at any point it was possible for me not to go to the park than there had to have been a point when all God knew was that there were two possibilities. Park or no park.
    It does not matter if God transcends time and space either. There had to have been a point at which time and space did not exist. Before there was time for God to transcend he could not have been able to observe the park or no park moment.
    ewashington7000 has presented a classic foreknowledge sidestep. Let me quote.

    "For instance, 'foreknowledge' of a certain event does NOT ''cause this certain event to actualize or transpire. For example, if God foreknows that a certain individual X will commit murder in the year 2028, God's foreknowledge of this individual X committing murder in the year 2028 does NOT cause this individual to commit murder. Rather, it is the individual X's own (i.e., free will) actions that causes he or she to commit murder in the year 2028."

    ewashington7000 attempts to erase the contradiction between foreknowledge and free will. When foreknowledge is mentioned in the Bible it is clearly in reference to the decisions that God has made to decide an outcome. Look it up.
    Also, to say you have foreknowledge now is not to say that you have always foreknown the outcome of a given event for which there are possible outcomes. In the end foreknowledge has nothing to do with the question.
    If God knows today that I will go to the park tomorrow than it is impossible for me not to go to the park. If He knew this yesterday than it is impossible for me not to go to the park tomorrow. If He knew this last week, or last year, or a million years ago than it is impossible for me to not go to the park. The only way that it can ever be possible for me to not go to the park is if there was a point at which God did not know if I was going to go to the park.
    The only way that God can have an eternal, perfect, knowledge of the future is if He dictates it. For if the future is truly created by our free will decisions than there had to be a point when God was only aware of the possible decisions we would make and the possible outcomes those decisions would generate. In this way, from the perspective of God there had to have been a point where park or no park were both viable options.
    It is a contradiction in logic to say that there was ever a chance I might not go to the park while at the same time God has always been certain I would go to the park.
  • omnikether Oct 21, 2010 @ 4:51 pm | delete
    I totally agree...
  • Don May 24, 2011 @ 8:36 pm | delete
    The Christian God is the only solution to this problem. You see the christian god is one all powerful god revealed in three persons. you have the father who is the almighty invisible god and he is revealed in a physical/visible way as the Son christ, and his power and love and other atributes reaveled in the spirit. In John 1:1 It says "In the begining was the word and the word was with God and the word was God". The word of God that is with god and yet is god is the son Jesus Christ, who has eternally existed with the father and spirit because there is no time outside of the universe god created. at the same time Jesus also reveals in the book of matthew that he does not know the day or hour of his second coming. that is because christ is god limiting himself for our sake. he became flesh for our sake. that is why he was able to walk in the garden with adam and talk with moses, wheras the father could not. The 33 Psalm reads "By the word of the lord the heavens were made and by the breath of his mouth the hosts thereof." if christ was the word of the lord, then it was in the form of the son god created everything not the father. hence the father knows all things in advance and can see everything that is why he will be able to judge the world, yet he was not directly involved in the creation of the universe, the son who does not know all things was, therefore god can be omniscient and still give free will. only the christian god can do this, any other god would unfortunatly run into the free will paradox.
  • ewashington7000 Jan 18, 2010 @ 5:40 pm | delete
    This is too simple...lol

    This paradox actually has been resolved quite some time ago by logicians. That is to say, there is nothing that renders God's omniscience logically inconsistent with man's 'free will.'

    First, this seeming conundrum rests on that which is commonly called a 'modal fallacy' (or perhaps better known as a 'modal scope fallacy'). That is to say, there is a confusion between de re necessity (i.e., necessity of the thing) and de dicto necessity (i.e., necessity of the saying).

    Thus, if an omniscient God knows that person X will go to the park tomorrow, simply, person X will go to the park tomorrow.

    There is no logical necessity laid on person X's going to the park tomorrow; namely, it is not logically impossible for for person X to NOT go to the park tomorrow (i.e., de re necessity).

    That which is logically necessary is that if an omniscient God knows that person X will go to the park tomorrow, person X goes to the park tomorrow (i.e., de dicto necessity).

    Now regarding 'free will,' there is also a confusion between the 'semantical' relationship of truth and the 'causal' relationship of truth regarding this paradox.

    For instance, 'foreknowledge' of a certain event does NOT ''cause this certain event to actualize or transpire. For example, if God foreknows that a certain individual X will commit murder in the year 2028, God's foreknowledge of this individual X committing murder in the year 2028 does NOT cause this individual to commit murder. Rather, it is the individual X's own (i.e., free will) actions that causes he or she to commit murder in the year 2028.

    Thus, that which semantically 'makes' such a proposition or statement true is the individual X actually committing murder in the year 2028 - not God's foreknowledge, or prediction, of such an event.

    Therefore, God's omniscience is logically consistent with man's free will.
  • Larry Feb 14, 2010 @ 8:38 am | delete
    incorrect
    first God has the ability to make the person NOT go to the park and second he has made this desicion billions of years ago. he decides when and where he will step in way before we are here... therefore EVERYTHING you do is predetermined. if you believe in God.
    it is simple he is either all knowing or not... if he is then you have NO free will. if you agree that God can affect your life. if he has no power over your life then he isnt really a God.... hence simple.
    think about it... billions of years ago God knew your were going to exist and he then made the decision of every second of every day when he would "step in"... therefore you are a robot in the illusion of free will
  • pedrico33 Jan 2, 2010 @ 3:18 am | delete
    I've been reading the responses from the limited intelligences who read this garbage.

    If God really does exist, he would be totally ashamed of Christians, that's for sure.
  • ewashington7000 Jan 23, 2010 @ 3:44 am | delete
    Perhaps you ought to peruse through the argumentation directly above these remarks. It's simply a metaphysical explanation, validated by simple modal propositional logic.

    Now (that which is for sure) is that, it is NOT the case, that if God really does exist, He (God) would be totally ashamed of Christians.
  • ewashington7000 Jan 23, 2010 @ 3:49 am | delete
    Therefore, God really does exist, and He (God) would NOT be totally ashamed of Christians.
  • aaron_smith Aug 28, 2009 @ 8:37 pm | delete
    You go a lot deeper than I do and I appreciate you making me think a bit. Unfortunately, I couldn't participate in your polls as my answer was usually "C" but I enjoyed reading the results anyway.
  • Tiddledeewinks May 21, 2009 @ 11:52 pm | delete
    If we have free will to take someone elses free will (murder or theft for instance) then shouldn't there be consequences?
  • spirituality Apr 30, 2009 @ 1:18 am | in reply to Starkman | delete
    That's interesting - whose definition is that?
  • Starkman Apr 29, 2009 @ 4:22 pm | delete
    Omniscience is classically defined as follows: God knows all things that are true and believes nothing that is false." Note: there is nothing (not even a hint) in the definition of "omniscience" that either mentions or suggests that God must have knowledge of everything we will ever think, say and do. In other words, God doesn't have to know that kind of knowledge in order to still be omniscient. He must only know what is true and believe nothing that is false.

    So if God made the world in such a way that it would be impossible for Him to know every thought, word and deed--this He did when He created us with free will--then a) that doesn't create a problem at all for God's omniscience, and b) He would isn't the least bothered by this!

    I Just wrote my first lens on this very subject. It won't show up for another day or so, as I understand here's the link if you'd like to read more: http://www.squidoo.com/OpenTheismAndReality

    Thanks,

    Starkman
  • ewashington7000 Jan 18, 2010 @ 8:12 pm | delete
    Then how can God consistently be called omniscient if God does not, in fact, know everything that 'we will ever think, say, or do?' Is not knowing 'everything we will ever think, say, or do' a logically necessary condition for God's omniscience?
  • StratusStatus Aug 7, 2010 @ 8:27 pm | delete
    Your definition CLEARLY imply that God must have knowledge of everything we will ever think, say and do. Here's why:

    Let's say yesterday I went to the store, right now I am walking my dog and tomorrow I'm buying a car. You say "God knows all things that are true", if this is the case then due to the fact that it's TRUE that I went to the store, am walking my dog and will buy a car tomorrow, he must know all of this. If I DON'T in fact buy a car tomorrow then he must know I will NOT buy a car tomorrow since this is true. As he is not constrained by time, he must know what I will TRULY do a week from now, 10 years later and etc...

    Since "He believes nothing that is false" then he must at all time never believe in any false possible future outcome. He must always know the TRUE future outcome because this is the only truth.

    Therefore your omniscience definition fail to prove the impossibility of him knowing everything thing past, present and future.
  • e_barrett Mar 25, 2009 @ 4:36 pm | delete
    Definitely a good lens. And I think does a good job presenting the various sides of the arguments. What always strikes me is how charged up people get about this issue. I think it's an interesting discussion, but I'm not convinced the answer (one way or another) ultimately proves (or disproves) anything. I tend to believe God exists outside of time. But I also admit, I am looking at God from a finite frame of reference with very, very, very limited knowledge. What I do know is important is how we live our lives, and what we believe. So while I think it's useful (and very interesting) to have viewpoints on topics such as these, for me, I'm not so sure it's the be-all and end-all of questions.
  • dustytoes Mar 8, 2009 @ 3:44 pm | delete
    Great lens and made me think about something I find unexplainable. But God is God and his ways are not ours...I don't think we always have to understand. I love your lens!
  • Margo_Arrowsmith Jan 1, 2009 @ 10:41 am | delete
    Interesting thread, but its hard to answer either/or questions about God and free will.

    I am not sure my dual answer showed up so here it is again. "Well, in no way that we could understand, however, we have much less free will than we could imagine. That we ever break out of the progression of history, even for a moment, I think is proof of free will and God. "Free will is the ability to do gladly that which you have to do." Carl Jung" ***** to you>
  • vbright105 Sep 12, 2008 @ 5:31 am | delete
    Very interesting and thought provoking lens! Thanks!
  • futurmajic Aug 13, 2008 @ 8:59 am | delete
    Yes. If there was a God who controled everything, all would then be Gods life, of which we are a part and we are all.
  • PositiveChristian Aug 6, 2008 @ 1:37 am | delete
    An excellent lens highlighting a very common but, in my opinion, flawed argument. God's omniscience and our freewill has never been a problem to me. Why should the two not be compatible?
  • spirituality May 22, 2008 @ 12:57 am | delete
    Ah, now I get your point. I changed the 'no' answer a bit, so you would have felt included :)

    Glad to see this got you pondering - that's the whole point. ;)
  • SusanVillasLewis May 21, 2008 @ 8:58 pm | delete
    Maybe. But to put it in that category still implies that I think there's some connection between God's omniscience (which isn't the same as just knowing me well) and free will. God's knowledge of my choice of A doesn't deny me the choice of B. These aren't compatible in terms of issues. (And yes, my head is starting to hurt now from pondering this. :-) I'm now going to exercise my free will to watch cartoons. :-)
  • spirituality May 19, 2008 @ 9:49 am | delete
    Hi Susan,

    Actually - I don't see why you couldn't fit your opinion in the 'No, God knows what we will be doing, but that's because he knows us so well. We still have free will.' category. But I'm glad you found a way to voice your opinion anyhow.

    I'm going to make sure a lot of responses of people get shown (not just the default 5), so voices like yours don't get lost.
  • SusanVillasLewis May 19, 2008 @ 9:08 am | delete
    Great job and a great topic. But I didn't feel I could participate in the duels because your basic assertion seems flawed. What does God's omniscience have to do with free will? Knowledge of something doesn't automatically imply manipulation, which would be necessary for there to be a lack of free will. The free-will issue often comes up in churches related to predestination, which has to do with God choosing his children (those he foreknew), thus implying no free will on our part. But I've never heard to seen it paired with God's general knowledge in this way. Just because he knows I'm going to have coffee every morning doesn't mean he dictated that I would. Knowledge and action aren't the same thing, and action would be required for me to lose my free will.
  • May 18, 2008 @ 12:26 pm | delete
    You have a talent for stimulating spiritual discussion -- and that's a good thing!
    Congratulations! This lens is number 200 in Empowerment & Enlightenment. Just as I did for #100. I will put a feature on you on all of my lenses and blogs for a week.
  • WhiteOak50 May 18, 2008 @ 7:07 am | delete
    One of the things about your lens that is so interesting is: you make people think, especially here lately. Thanks for all that you offer to the group!

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