Ethical questions on your work
No question in my mind that in the past ( twenty to thirty years ago )I believed in this implicitly. Year after year however I have been gradually changing my mind and I speak this way as an former employer myself. Personally I seldom fired anybody apart from certain acts which I could not distance myself from, such as theft, wilful acts of destruction, drunkeness or habitual idleness. My reasoning behind this was because I soon learnt that you are never sure that the replacement will be any better and often aren't. Therefore rather sort whatever you have.
The following is just a brief review of things I was taught and my experiences of having been on both sides of the coin as an employer and as an worker.
More importantly my current circumstances are due to events outside my control precipitated by political ideologies. I have no regrets and am thankful that I had along with my wife and children the opportunity to have led such a life and to have got out of it all intact, unlike some of my friends. I'm not the first person in the world to go through this and no doubt I won't be the last.
You would think that we all should know better, so let us be thankful for our blessings.
Please feel free to read on.
AS THE BOSS
Things I learnt
Believe it or not, in the past on my farms in Africa, depending on the time of year, I employed around 200 people.In most cases these were just simple, uneducated peasants. In the beginning most of these people had no recourse to rights, both as humans and workers.
Today, I wake up in a bad mood. Travelling around the farm, nothing is going well and I'm trying to pick holes in all their work. Eventually, I come across something being done really badly and I explode. The long and short of it is, I end up saying, "You are fired."
I'm a big man hey?
I think not.
Ethics
Some questions answered
FAIRNESS, A MORAL VALUE?
Ethics
My Uncle whom I never met as he died before my time and was the first owner of the farm in Rhodesia now known as Zimbabwe.He bought this with his own money and at the end of the second World War, he asked my dad, recently de-mobbed from the Royal Navy and still living in England, to come and help him, which he did.
My uncle at this time was fluent in the African language Shona, spoken by all the tribes in Mashonaland. Moreover, he was also a considered expert on their customs and on friendly terms with all their chiefs. Consequently, labour was never short.
More importantly, he left our family a heritage which has been passed down through the generations. Namely, get to know the people who work for you, their desires, their customs and what motivates them. It will always stand you in good stead and never forget, no matter how simple someone might be, that they are people first and everything else secondly.
For example in those times, most farmers worked what was known as "chonalanga", broadly speaking meaning, sunrise to sunset. We never did, they were set a task and when they were finished, they were off. They loved it and each according to their own ability. In todays world, this is now illegal.
We then instituted "ganyu" (overtime), for those workers who were stronger and could do with some exta money. Any Sunday work was double time and this was 1948.
By we, I mean the family.
languages
Some different types
ANNOYING THINGS FROM WORKERS
Absenteeism
By and large, treating your work force fairly, keeps them happy and motivated, in my opinon.However, it works both ways. The thing that annoyed me most as an owner was; absenteeism .
This is especially true when you are busy and in a farming enviroment, can mean the difference between, saving a crop or losing it. Normally in my experience, this is just after you have paid them and every excuse comes into play, but generally;"-I'M SICK." Nine times out of ten it means that they still have a hangover, which is their problem, not mine.
Secondly, you give a better worker a raise and then everybody else wants one, irrespective of their contribution.
The constant tribulations; can be anything, headaches, funerals, whatever.
Eventually, what happens is the owner gets tired of it and decides to mechanise, no more constant tribulations and the machine doesn't talk back.
Always assuming you can afford this.
So there are two sides to every story.
Mechanising
To mechanise or not
It is the way to go

I agree, no more nonsense
charlino says:
I've been on both sides of the fence, too. Both employed and the employer. Somehow over the years the comraderie has been undermined in order to host an 'us vs them' mentality. I wasn't raised that way, my Father believed in giving 110 percent on the job. He taught me that the person who hired you is helping you put a roof over your head. I learned to go in a little early and leave a little late, and to what it took to get the job done. My hub's business was technical, and as a small business, we took a lot of hits before closing our doors. Unfortunately, many a person we employed severely lacked work ethics. People would show up late for an job interview believing that as an employer, we owed them a job they had no intention of doing. I agree with M. Schaut - bottom line is, if you want to ship and no one else does, sometimes one must to mechanize in order to get the job done to put food on the table.
Momtothezoo says:
Again, this depends on the circumstances.
JoanneOtt says:
It's not easy to do, but sometimes you have no choice.
Margaret_Schaut says:
If you really cannot get things done that MUST be done, and your employees don't take this seriously, there is nothing wrong with mechanizing. People have taken too much for granted for too long, and small business really takes the hits.
Totally disagree
Michelle1959 says:
Mechanisation unfortunately isn't a solution.
Less work more crime. The social cum work environment is critical to balance even if it's one day or 10 hours per week.
More people stand to lose both ways in so many respects although mechanisation seems the easy way out.
Corporates and employees suffer losses from contracting out and mechanisation is only going to minimise the problem - not eradicate it. Sad to say that we are so desperate these days that it seems to be the only answer. Having worked I.R. and Labour Relations, these are defied, abused etc., and a sad choice for mankind to resort to.
blue22d says:
I would have to go along with Margaret Schaut. Sometimes you cannot get to cooperation that you need and to improve business production you may need to mechanize. But in any case, it is up to the owners. It is there business and should be able to make it into what they want. It is government, rules and regs they spoil the pot.
papawu says:
I guess it depends on the business you are in. I am in marketing and deal with people so this is pretty much impossible for mme.
MUGABE AND THE COMMUNIST YEARS
A tragedy
My Uncle died and then my Aunt sold the farm, but a few years later, my dad bought it back.Unfortunately, two months later, the Rhodesian government declared U.D.I.(Unilateral Declaration of Independance), and the British, and the rest of the world went mad imposing International sanctions amongst other things.
So it was a bad time to be an owner, especially a Tobacco grower, which was export generated. More importantly, Mugabe and his terrorists gained momentum during the ensuing years and their main target was farmers and their labour. He knew that if he could scare the farmers and their labour, his task was almost done. Consequently, innocent people were brutally murdered and I personally lost many friends in this era.
Needless to say he never succeeded and in all that time, our farm never had the slightest bit of trouble. What I mean is from a labour point of view. At the end despite sanctions, war etc. when Rhodesia was finally betrayed, we had one of the strongest economies in the world for our size. You can find more about that at Ian Douglas Smith
Off course once Mugabe ascended into power with his communist ideologies and his subsequent commitment to workers rights at all costs. It was very difficult, the slightest transgression on your side and you had the Unions all over you.
In the ensuing years, for the first time in over 60 years, the labour started to give us trouble, but even so we never had a strike.
I lie, just prior to Mugabe's infamous land grab, he bused his war vets into our farm, harrassing the workers until the early hours of the morning.
We had a strike riled on by this lot. When you have to face 200 drunken people chanting for blood and it's just you, believe me, it gets frightening..
I'm thankful to say, I managed to talk some sense into them, and it only lasted a day, and never again, they stuck by us through and through.
I like to believe that for 70 years they knew that they had been treated well by us and were grateful.
Eventually, the end came and we were forced off our farm by a bunch of thugs with no recourse to law and order, or the courts, and justice, and no recompense for our land, and what we had done for it.
John Steinbeck
' The Grapes of Wrath'
"There is a crime here that goes beyond denunciation,
there is a sorrow here that weeping cannot symbolise."
PERISH THE THOUGHT,AM NOW A WORKER
Labour
I am not going to go into too much detail here, except to say that I am now living in Ireland and my experiences here as a worker, mainly on farms.Essentially I worked at one place for 4 years averaging about 80 hours a week. In all that time I never had one days leave. I worked all the public holiday's and every Sunday and never made one cent in overtime.
They have very strict labour laws in this country, but the farmer turns a blind eye to it. I spoke to them as a former owner until I was blue in the face, to no avail. Once the influx of Eastern Europeans came into the country, I promptly lost my job. The funny thing is I was replaced by two of them. So one of me and two of them hey? It was the most humiliating experience of my life.
The next place was better, at least I got time off and got leave. However after two years of averaging 60 hours a week, was given a months notice and replaced. Guess what? You got it, by two of them, not withstanding the fact that they let me go on the grounds of being too slow.
These people have no agricultural experience at all, and I'm qualified with my diploma in Agriculture. In all honesty, physically, its impossible for me to compete with younger people.
In America, for example, I would be in demand as they would employ a Mexican as a worker, and me as a manager. Here in general, they have no need of that, and are not really interested in improving yields or man management etc.
Are they bad people, most certainly not, it's just that they know no better in my opinion?
Subsequently I have found no employment.
This has driven me nuts. No more farming for me, after this.Have no experience anywhere else according to the 500 places I have applied to. Was turned down on one job for sweeping litter on the grounds of not having enough job experience, if you can believe it?
For the first time in my life, I'm now bitter.
Work Boots
INDUSTRY
Money
In almost every instant that I can think of, as workers, apart from the public sector, you are better off here, and I include Forestry. They seem to have a set of rules whether voluntary or imposed on them by the state.Perhaps it is because they have large workforces and if they don't treat them accordingly, they stand to lose large amounts of money in case of labour disputes.
I guess thats what it is all about, money.
I have a large moral dilemma with this at the moment, and can't seem to make up my mind.
EPILOGUE
Morality
If you have an idea, and it's yours, and you work hard, and start to make money from it. Who is anyone else to tell you what you can, and cannot do with it?However, does the same apply if you now start to hire people, after all, it's still your money, and idea. Therefore you can do whatever you like?
Basically, does it boil down to greed? Look around you, look at the current mess; banks going down with peoples hard earned money in it. Surely everything has to be balanced by a moral obligation to society as a whole?
Over 2000 years ago, didn't Jesus say? "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you". Have we all lost sight of ourselves, or is that nonsense too?
As far as I'm concerned, we all have to take a good hard look at ourselves again.
Sorry to bore,
Cheers,
Spook
EMPLOYERS MUST HAVE AN INALIENABLE RIGHT TO HIRE AND FIRE
Yes or no
YES THEY DO

YES INALIENABLE
charlino says:
Yes.
Momtothezoo says:
I don't think it would be possible to run a business without the right to fire an employee who is slacking on the job. However, the manager should also be called upon to keep certain guidelines to whether or not a person deserves to be fired. I also feel, in most cases, that one chance to pull it together should be handed to the employee with warning of termination if they don't. I know how hard it is to work with a fella employee who isn't carrying their share of the workload. This boils down to the circumstances of the termination and the action of the individual employee.
vallain says:
I've fired people, but because of the many lawsuits in the States, employers such as city governments are slow to let anyone go. It really is demoralizing to other staff to have someone goofing off, not pulling their weight, inciting dissatisfaction, chronic absenteeism or other issues. I worked on trying to rehabilitate one employee for 3 years before finally giving up and firing the person. That was over ten years ago and I still wonder what it did to their life. Still, my job was to make the place function properly. I do realize that as a manager, I failed to find the key to making that employee productive. Sad, all around.
BFuniv.com says:
Like you, I've done both. I like what we used to have, "Employment at Will." Either the employee of the boss could terminate their relationship, without cause, at any time. This kept both looking for better opportunities, and rewarded innovation and hard work. Those with a work ethic should earn more than the idle, and be rewarded for it. The idle should be let go, or work at a different profession.
The key may be education. Not forced, that only creates robotic knowledge regurgitation, but cheaply and readily available to anyone. Technology now provides this avenue. Let those that wish better themselves, expecting more benefits for the rarity and applicability of their achievements.
On your own farm, you probably provided training and promotion to the best workers. It was to their and your benefit to do so. Since you appreciated them, they would tend to stay with you.
As a worker you have not been appreciated for your value. In a world divided by national borders and ethnocentrism, there is no easy answer. Your bosses made poor choices, you will find other bosses, or start your own company. As the Homeopath states, contracts can secure both party's rights. But any relationship needs to be voluntary to be equitable.
"In a free society the state does not administer the affairs of men. It administers justice among men who conduct their own affairs." - Walter Lippmann
I was once fired from a job, devastating. However in hind sight it was wonderful. I have been free to pursue tasks far more suitable to me than that career path. I have researched and applied processes no public school teaches. Life is a challenge at times, but it can still be enjoyed as an adventure.
papawu says:
I am an employer and boss so I say HELL YES! lol.
NOT INALIENABLE
Michelle1959 says:
Of course they cannot - employers I mean. Like the writer I've been part of top management for a large mining house - the largest in my country. Us and our counterparts in varied industries held value and found that the middle band or man was the main problem - and if I listen to today's people, nothing's changed. Spook your story shakes a person rigid although I come from that great land! It's what you experienced in your new home that shocks a person too. I say you are right: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". Jealousy, greed and man-made issues have affected both employers and employees. I'm sorry you had to experience what you did - you remain a fine example to others in light of all this and that is what is inspiring!
charlino says:
Margaret is right. Both employers and employees can be abusive. If you are a good guy caught in the middle, usually no one wants you around. Only an individual is entitled to inalienable rights. However, being on both sides of the fence myself, I can understand an employer's right to hire the most qualified person they can for the job they need filled.
Margaret_Schaut says:
IMHO the problem isn't rights to hire/fire or rights to work. The REAL problem is abuse, and abuse happens on both sides. Throw in a government, or international relationships that seek power at any cost, and an immoral monetary system that feels entitled to suck everyone dry, and everyone is crushed under those wheels.
Only the individual is entitled to unalienable rights, at least according to the Constitution of the United States, and the problem is that parties have substituted themselves for 'the people' and so have entities of all types such as corporations, and ultimately the government itself has done the same thing.
However, in so permitting, it is the people who's unalienable rights are GUARANTEED by the Constitution are the ones who have lost them all. The rest break laws without consequence as they see fit.
Therefore employers and employees have distorted positions in society and they must all scramble for survival, which usually means at the expense of the least powerful.
The ONLY time Jesus got violent was with the 'money changers' and with much better reason that anyone realized heretofore.
Judes says:
Sorry, I'm of the 'old school'... Money rules in today's society! I believe that people matter. Encouragement, fairness and respect are essential for maintaining an effective workforce. Sure, some people deserve to be fired and should be, for serious misdemeanors, or, if the company is facing bankruptcy, then certain people have to go...but employers should always attempt to see things from the perspective of the employee. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you".
Pete says:
When times are good... there's a 10-20% Bonus in the Bank.. but when times get tough... the axe comes out.. often its the highest earners, achievers who are the most expensive to keep on ! I was in that predicament in Dec 08. I believe in myself.
Spook: Can you look into Self Employment opportunities teaching First Aid. I may be able to assist. Market is regarded as less exposed in terms of recession risk. Market includes Business Enterprises, Schools, Care Workers, Hotels etc... I am in the process of setting up a Regional Training Operation in SE Asia. You may have a similar opportunity where you are.
unsinkablewoman says:
I Am From NJ, I Now Live In NC USA
In My Home State We Have Unions To Protect The Employees
Here In NC This Is Called A Right To Work State, That Means You Can Be Hired Or Fired At Anytime Day Or Night Without Reason, There Has Been A Great Change In The Way Things Are Done In This Country, People Dont Care What You Need Nor Want As Long As They Get What They Want Who Cares About You
No Such Thing As Moral's In The Work Place Anymore
I Do Hope Things Are Going Better For You Now 5*
The_Homeopath says:
Although both parties may have "rights" I feel that it's only common sense to have written contracts to protect both parties. Certain mis-conduct by a worker should allow the employer to terminate them without fear of repercussions, and workers should not need to deal with the uncertainty of sudden termination for no reason.
Spook says:
They should have a "code of conduct", drawn up and acceptable to both parties, although slightly favouring the employer
You're welcome to follow
Feel Free to Join in:Thanx
Have a say
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favored1
Mar 13, 2012 @ 12:58 pm | delete
- I was about to leave you a comment on you bio page just to say hi (since I haven't seen you about lately), then I came across this page. You have done a great job voicing here, and are quite fair in your estimations. Your points are valid and are based on experience, I like that. I wish more people in authority would carry your point of view when it comes to the value of experience.
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jackiebolen Jan 14, 2011 @ 5:30 pm | delete
- Fascinating stuff...I'm always interested in stories from Zim. My good friend from grad school is from there and told me all about it.
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blue22d
Jan 10, 2011 @ 2:32 pm | delete
- Great lens and good discussion topics. I vote along with Papawu that a owner/employer should have the right to fire with just cause. Now, with that in mind, I am speaking about the owner of a business and not middle management in a large corporation who sometimes refer to themselves as employers. Thank God for personnel departments in large corporations as you have some recourse (been there).
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javrsmith Jan 6, 2011 @ 9:25 am | delete
- The treatment of farmers such as you in Zimbabwe has been nothing short of criminal. Good luck to you. This lens has been blessed by a Squid Angel.
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mysticmama
Jan 2, 2011 @ 12:48 pm | delete
- Here in the States, there are a lot of laws that protect workers & businesses often find it hard to just "fire" people unless the worker has committed a crime. Most employess that are fired or layed off, are eligible for unemployment that the business then must pay for ~ which also discourages businesses from firing...but with our economy so bad, in the last couple of years many businesses are finding that paying unemployment for a year is cheaper than keeping the employees. So now with businesses between a rock & a hard place, they are choosing to lay people off in the hope of just staying in business ~ but firing is a different kettle of fish ~ most businesses avoid firing, because fired workers in the US tend to turn around and sue the business, so most businesses try to force workers out before firing or laying off, by cutting hours, wages, demoting, etc...
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Spook
Jan 2, 2011 @ 1:14 pm | delete
- Yes, I understand what you mean, but riding people out I find deplorable.
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charlino Jan 2, 2011 @ 10:18 am | delete
- Wow. Talk about living and learning. This is about one of the most timely topics of our day, but one least talked about. Thank you for bringing it to the forefront.
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Spook
Jan 2, 2011 @ 1:12 pm | delete
- Thank you Charlino. Actually it has been sitting here doing nothing for a while no.
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Momtothezoo Jan 2, 2011 @ 8:59 am | delete
- As we speak, my son has been laid off from AT&T, due to no fault of his. He has worked so hard to build his reputation and work ethics with this company for the past five years. But, they laid him off anyway. Basically, they are laying off the young men who make the most money and will rehire at some time in the next five years at a lesser salary. Chad, thankfully, saw the ball falling and saved him money the past two years...they will be fine. And he is a hard worker and I am confident he will find something else to do in the interim. However, he put so much into this job...so he would most probably take a rehire when offered so that he doesn't lose what he has worked so hard for. In the old days, a man like my son would be valued and an employer would never want to lose him. But companies of today do not see people as people...they are numbers and dollar signs only. It is sad that they have come to this. I agree with Joan. I think it is time for men to start using the brains God gave them and come up with businesses in demand in their own right...start their own company and give the public the kind of service they deserve. If they are honest and hardworking and have a product to offer, they will be successful.
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Spook
Jan 2, 2011 @ 1:10 pm | delete
- It's what I mean Jeanie, whatever happened to fairness?
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Joan4
Jan 2, 2011 @ 8:21 am | delete
- I would certainly not want to run a business without the right to fire an ineffective employee. At the same time, I have had some bad experiences as an employee, so I can see that side of it too. I think we are moving into a world of self-employment. Now is the time for those brilliant ideas, the chance to be creative, and to be the best boss we ever had, ourselves!
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Spook
Jan 2, 2011 @ 1:09 pm | delete
- I've always maintained that to be your own man is the only way, especially with my circumstances. However it appears to be harder and harder in today's world, but I know what you mean.
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JoanneOtt
Oct 4, 2010 @ 2:49 am | delete
- Not sure when you updated this lens last, but wondering how things are going now. This certainly was a heart felt story to read.
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WeddingZazzle
Apr 14, 2010 @ 5:23 am | delete
- Thanks for sharing your personal experience. Gives us all something to think about. SquidAngel Blessings:)
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Ramkitten
Dec 6, 2009 @ 12:04 pm | delete
- I've never been in a position to fire someone, but it would be very difficult for me to do. The only situations in which it wouldn't be so difficult is if, as you said, they'd done something like "theft, willful acts of destruction, drunkenness or habitual idleness." And there would probably be cases where I might even try to help them rectify the situation even given one of those things, especially if they'd been working for me for a long time and this was a new development. Anyhow, this is a very thought-provoking lens, and I'd rather never be in a position of having to hire OR fire. I just like working for myself.
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JaguarJulie Jul 27, 2009 @ 10:53 am | delete
- You know Kevin, my hubby [and I guess me too my marriage] are owners of a business with two other partners. Thus far, we have been lucky in the employee department as we have hired a number of the same people we worked side by side with for years before the big company closed its doors and gave those people pink slips. Me? I left a few years earlier, having seen the writing on the wall. Lots to think about to hire or not to hire ... to fire or not to fire!
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papawu
May 16, 2009 @ 7:41 pm | delete
- As a boss and employer I believe in my right to hire and fire. If it's my money and livelyhood on the line then it's only right.
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Jenna
Mar 13, 2009 @ 8:20 pm | delete
- Interesting food for thought. Thinking about my experiences (which admittedly aren't plentiful) - a large factor in the equation is the character of the employer: good employer is one who has integrity and does everything in their power to be fair to their employers - this means considering more than just financial gains. This in turn earns the respect of the employees.
However, in order to attain a balanced equilibrium, the employees must equally show their respect by not taking advantage of the employees trust.
If either of these things are missing (or their is a cultural misunderstanding/difference of what is considered "fair" then there is inevitably going to be a fall out! It surely is a tricky affair!
Good job of giving us something to think about!
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frantic
Mar 11, 2009 @ 10:12 am | delete
- Your writing brings back so many memories. We lived in the most beautiful of countries didnt we?
It is sad to think that it is all over. Maybe we can still hope that the pendulum will swing and that there is still a dawn of hope on Zimbabwe's horizon. I think how we handle what happens to us is all about attitude and choice. You can choose to let it bring you down, or you can fight to stay positive. Life is too short to be miserable. I vote we pick ourselves up and go after our hearts desires for the rest of our short lives. I choose to be happy.
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OhMe Feb 20, 2009 @ 9:56 am | delete
- Wow. All of your words really give me something to think about. You have done an excellent job with this lens, as usual. Good Luck to you!
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GrowWear
Feb 18, 2009 @ 3:59 pm | delete
- Spook, you're a thought-provoker. My take is that there will always be injustices in the world, and we can do only what is in our power to do about it. I hope you can take the bitterness you feel and make it into a positive. Love to you and your family.
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Tipi
Feb 13, 2009 @ 6:37 pm | delete
- I couldn't stop reading once I got started. You wrote this in a forthright fashion. - Things will work out, they always do! :))
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sara08852
Jan 7, 2009 @ 1:19 pm | delete
- It is rare to see such deep thoughts written unto a lens. Good job and best wishes.
Sara
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thesolowriter
Oct 23, 2008 @ 2:47 pm | delete
- It's touchy for sure. The concept we are hired for life, similar to being a tenured professor, seems to have become troublesome for us, the American workforce. It's hard to fire someone today for laziness, bad work habits, non-productivity. Which is problematic. However, it seems when we give someone full license to do something (like fire at will), they abuse it. That's why we have unions. If only we could all do the right thing all the time. If only, we weren't human. So glad we are though!!
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thesolowriter
Oct 23, 2008 @ 2:47 pm | delete
- It's touchy for sure. The concept we are hired for life, similar to being a tenured professor, seems to have become troublesome for us, the American workforce. It's hard to fire someone today for laziness, bad work habits, non-productivity. Which is problematic. However, it seems when we give someone full license to do something (like fire at will), they abuse it. That's why we have unions. If only we could all do the right thing all the time. If only, we weren't human. So glad we are though!!
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Spook
I'm Kevin alias Spook. I was born and brought up in Zimbabwe and was one of the farmers who lost his land in the infamous land grab.
Have also lived...
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