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From the lens Meetings Anonymous: Cult or Cure.

  • ezravan Nov 25, 2009 @ 1:16 am | delete
    My Squidoo is a work in progress.. hopefully over the holiday i can hit it agin.
  • BikerPagan Nov 24, 2009 @ 1:46 am | delete
    Read through your article cult of a stolen god. You might want to try google to get some of the facts correct. AA was founded by William Griffith Wilson and Robert Holbrook Smith. I cant seem to find any references to Bill Williams. Heaven's Gate was UFO cult based in San Diego Ca. I cant find anything linking them to AA. The Jonestown cult (Peoples Temple) was founded in 1955 by James Warren Jones moved to SanFransisco CA in 1965 and to Guyana in 1977. Once again I cant find anything in their history linking them to AA.
    While your blog page looks very nice, I would suggest that you get a spell check program. I have read some of the books you have suggested and am familar with the orange papers, the author seems angry to me. Whether or not AA is a religion does not matter to me. The first amendment to the constitution of the United States affords us freedom OF religion. That being said I dont think that the government (court system) should force people to go to AA.
    In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, it states that they do not have a monopoly on staying sober. They state that if you can do a right about face and drink like a gentlman their hats are off to you. You mentioned the Moderation Movement (MM) founed by Audrey Kishline, who on March 25, 2000 killed a 38 year old man with her pick up truck. Her blood alcohol was 3 times the legal limit. Enough said about MM.
    Having read your article about your " friends" you had dinner with you make it clear that you are a christian, so lets take a look at that. You can look this up in the christian book of mythology (bible)
    Your god requires: Blood sacrifice, subjagtion of women, anialation of cities slaughter of multitudes,unquestioned obedience, murder of his own son and as a grand finally he plans to destroy the world by fire. And people ask my why Im pagan I just dont get it.
    Blood
  • ezravan Nov 25, 2009 @ 12:49 pm | delete
    Read through your article cult of a stolen god. You might want to try google to get some of the facts correct. AA was founded by William Griffith Wilson and Robert Holbrook Smith. I cant seem to find any references to Bill Williams. Heaven's Gate was UFO cult based in San Diego Ca. I cant find anything linking them to AA. The Jonestown cult (Peoples Temple) was founded in 1955 by James Warren Jones moved to SanFransisco CA in 1965 and to Guyana in 1977. Once again I cant find anything in their history linking them to AA.

    I don't understand.. are you showing what a great google'r you are? I don't make reference to dates, or care much for them for this purpose. I'm not a wikipedia. Yes, your right though.. i need to link better. These articles where written a few years ago on paper, my site is about 3 -4 weeks old, so give me some time while i try to get all the articles brushed up for the web. As far as Heaven's Gate can't find the source. .. I guess you win the whole argument ;) I removed it till i hae time to drum through the books. Jonsetown is very well known (to kings like me) to have been one of the biggest rehab centers in New York.. also a reference on wikipedia i don't care where they started or ended.

    While your blog page looks very nice, I would suggest that you get a spell check program.

    I don't use spell checkers they make me itch

    I have read some of the books you have suggested and am familar with the orange papers, the author seems angry to me.

    Anger my friend is one of the safest emotions we have

    whether or not AA is a religion does not matter to me.

    Thats cool.. than it's not directed to you then. Your a grown man, you can decide to be in any religion.

    In the book Alcoholics Anonymous, it states that they do not have a monopoly on staying sober. They state that if you can do a right about face and drink like a gentlman their hats are off to you.

    Yes.. that's what they say don't they.. they say that in any cult, and especially if their cornered.. the do course, mock, be little embarrass.. i've seen to my face and hae read much about it.. and they be little us poor bastards because we were not born as strong as Jimbo. From the horses mouth:

    RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not give themselves completely to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way.
    A.A. Big Book, 3rd & 4th Editions, William G. Wilson, page 58.


    You mentioned the Moderation Movement (MM) founed by Audrey Kishline, who on March 25, 2000 killed a 38 year old man with her pick up truck. Her blood alcohol was 3 times the legal limit. Enough said about MM.

    Low blow bro.. be careful i might say some of real embarrassing facts about your leader, what you say his name was.. oh, Bill Wilson who begged for whiskey at the end of his life.. but faithful AA'ers.. what? Thought he'd go hell for it? makes no sense.. but it's a good idea not to invite your 12 step baddie over when your getting ready to split. The fact is, that no teacher in all history made it through life without stumbling over his own chin.. well except that one obsessed with blood. MM has some good resources.. and you'll be abel to have that whiskey when you die.

    Your god requires: Blood sacrifice, subjagtion of women, anialation of cities slaughter of multitudes,unquestioned obedience, murder of his own son and as a grand finally he plans to destroy the world by fire. And people ask my why Im pagan I just dont get it.
    Blood


    Well you got me there.. That sounds exactly like my God.

    I've continued this post on kingez.com
  • BikerPagan Nov 24, 2009 @ 12:38 am | delete
    The jonestown cult( Peoples Temple) was founded in 1955 in Indianapolis In by James Warren Jones. From there they moved to San Fransisco CA in 1965 and in 1977 to Guyana.
    I wonder what other things you are stating as fact are not?
  • soberguy Nov 23, 2009 @ 7:00 pm | delete
    Deciding that you are a member of a 12 step group in no way restricts you from belonging to any outside religious organization. I know many Christians, Jews, and Buddhist who work the steps. In my experience it is encouraged from both sides. Yes the 12 step groups are like a religions in some ways and like a cults in others but the fact still stands that a lot of addicts recover form addiction in the rooms of 12 step groups. What makes 12 step groups unique is that they have but one primary purpose. That is to stay sober and to help others to achieve sobriety. Not to take your money or save your soul.
    Now the "greater good of society" quote?? What I have experienced in 12 step groups are people who were like myself a burden to society and now they are productive sober members of their communities. Not locked up in jail or detoxing in a public hospital once a month at the taxpayers expense . Also they are no longer driving the car next to you at the stop light in the morning sipping vodka & orange juice out of their travel mugs. These people finding help in the 12 steps doesn't sound to me like a bad thing for society as a whole. Even the US court system mandates DWI offenders to attend 12 step meetings (which I personally don't agree with). I do not think that the United States Constitution allows for the courts to require anyone attend a "religious organization"? Surely if this was the case we would hear a lot more about this than what you have posted on this page.
    Now you say that the steps do not look for the the truth. Yet you do not state what the truth is? Lets say you were to believe that your brand of religion was the one and only truth and society as a whole would benefit from your brand of religion if they would only believe and act as you do. Now your argument against the 12 steps or any other view point besides the ones your religion holds would be understood. (Talk about an old argument) That would uncover a whole new meaning behind this "Cult or Cure" page.
    By the way you have yet to mention how you found a solution to your own addiction troubles. If you have another solution I would not be opposed to it. Anything that is proven to work should be recognized and promoted. It seems to me that this would be a good place to post a positive message about a solution for addiction instead of a lot of stuff about what's wrong with the 12 steps. Most of the people stumbling across this page will have a close relationship with addiction troubles whether it be their own or that of a loved one and are probably looking for help. I know that their are many alternatives to the 12 steps and no doubt that there are many success stories. People have been getting sober long before the 12 steps were written. Any recovery from the depths of addiction is in my mind a miracle and should be celebrated as such. I would hate for you to turn away people from a program that works with out leaving them an alternative beside a book on how to moderate their drinking (which is the delusion of most every alcoholic). Addiction is a horrible disease and anything that helps the lives of those who still suffer from this hopeless state of mind and body should not be over looked.
  • ezravan Nov 25, 2009 @ 12:54 pm | delete
    Here is another discussion from my Squidoo lens on Alcoholics Anonymous as a cult. This one is a bit more tame than the guy that kept making fun of my Lesdexia. errr.. bark. I hope to continue editing my lens when I have some time. cheers.

    Deciding that you are a member of a 12 step group in no way restricts you from belonging to any outside religious organization. I know many Christians, Jews, and Buddhist who work the steps.

    It's the Scientific age, and we're it's science projects.
    Yes those are called the weaker brethren.. which i am one of.

    In my experience it is encouraged from both sides. Yes the 12 step groups are like a religions in some ways and like a cults in others but the fact still stands that a lot of addicts recover form addiction in the rooms of 12 step groups. What makes 12 step groups unique is that they have but one primary purpose. That is to stay sober and to help others to achieve sobriety. Not to take your money or save your soul.




    I don't have much to say to people that don't mind being Polytheist except that it does not work. If you quit drinking, and that's what you wanted to do, then I truly am glad for you. But, Harvard research and statistics shows that you would have most likely recovered (oh ya you don't recover) anyway. Even if you didn't you were one of the lucky very few.. there is, in a conservative estimation, about 10% success.. some say 5%. If a pill was getting only 10% success, they would slap that off the shelf in a second... that's called grossly failing to do the job.

    Now the "greater good of society" quote??

    Because it doesn't work. Because it's actually, in my belief, causing the problem more than solving it, it's making alcoholics, because alcoholics in the sense we believe don't exist. Only drunks, and Alcohol abusers exist, and the simple answer.. quit drinking or drink less, or drink yourself to death... not join a religion and marry your drunkenness. If we could topple this dinosaur that even it's founder reported only had a 5% success, than the doors may open for some rational options.

    What I have experienced in 12 step groups are people who were like myself a burden to society and now they are productive sober members of their communities.

    Wow.. really.. do you sound like a robot...or maybe German? You might think I'm being mean, but I'm not trying to be. Do you realize you are saying almost verbatim what is AA common speak is. Is that why you quit drinking for, to be productive citizen? That kinda statement scares me. If that is what I had to quit drink for... forget it! I'd die with a smail on my face and vomit in my hair. Maybe that's why we're a nation of wimpy men we've been trained up by AA mentality. I don't want to be a productive in the way this society dictates.

    Not locked up in jail or detoxing in a public hospital once a month at the taxpayers expense .
    We're individuals with souls, and the problem is, we Americans, find it much easier to treat people like genetic cattle
    The thing is, AA can get you back in jail in more than one way.. there is a study by the American Journal of Psychiatry that pitted those with no treatment against the 12 steppers concerning re-arrest rates. Guess who did the worst. And the other way is someone might call your parol agent, which i witnessed at a high profile AA group just last year, because the guy had big problems with the religiosity of AA.

    Also they are no longer driving the car next to you at the stop light in the morning sipping vodka & orange juice out of their travel mugs.

    Hey I truly sympathies... but that's your problem and your immaturity.. not any disease. You we're not so powerless as to not put down a mug and go home.

    These people finding help in the 12 steps doesn't sound to me like a bad thing for society as a whole. Even the US court system mandates DWI offenders to attend 12 step meetings (which I personally don't agree with). I do not think that the United States Constitution allows for the courts to require anyone attend a "religious organization"? Surely if this was the case we would hear a lot more about this than what you have posted on this page.

    Here is one ruling you can read a summary on, there have been a few, but have not changed the courts much. Wouldn't you stand up and denounce this as a American? I sure will.

    "A fair reading of the fundamental AA doctrinal writings discloses that their dominant theme is unequivocally religious," the court said. "Adherence to the AA fellowship entails engagement in religious activity and religious proselytization."

    Others:

    All of these courts have ruled that Alcoholics Anonymous is a religion or engages in religious activities:

    the Federal 7th Circuit Court in Wisconsin, 1984.
    the Federal District Court for Southern New York, 1994.
    the New York Court of Appeals, 1996.
    the New York State Supreme Court, 1996.
    the U.S. Supreme Court, 1997.
    the Tennessee State Supreme Court.
    the Federal 2nd Circuit Court of Appeals in New York, 1996.
    the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit.
    the U.S. Court of Appeals, Seventh District, 1996.
    the Federal Appeals Court in Chicago, 1996.
    The Federal Appeals Court in Hawaii, September 7, 2007, in

    Now you say that the steps do not look for the the truth. Yet you do not state what the truth is? Lets say you were to believe that your brand of religion was the one and only truth and society as a whole would benefit from your brand of religion if they would only believe and act as you do. Now your argument against the 12 steps or any other view point besides the ones your religion holds would be understood. (Talk about an old argument) That would uncover a whole new meaning behind this "Cult or Cure" page.

    That is a good point. I guess if Bill Wilson was the second coming of Christ I'd be in hell.. but the good news is.. yall send all the Alcohol down stairs. But, matter of fact I do have a particular belief like that, and that's why I do this, because I believe that truth matters and the oppressed should be defended.

    By the way you have yet to mention how you found a solution to your own addiction troubles. If you have another solution I would not be opposed to it. Anything that is proven to work should be recognized and promoted. It seems to me that this would be a good place to post a positive message about a solution for addiction instead of a lot of stuff about what's wrong with the 12 steps. Most of the people stumbling across this page will have a close relationship with addiction troubles whether it be their own or that of a loved one and are probably looking for help. I know that their are many alternatives to the 12 steps and no doubt that there are many success stories. People have been getting sober long before the 12 steps were written. Any recovery from the depths of addiction is in my mind a miracle and should be celebrated as such. I would hate for you to turn away people from a program that works with out leaving them an alternative beside a book on how to moderate their drinking (which is the delusion of most every alcoholic). Addiction is a horrible disease and anything that helps the lives of those who still suffer from this hopeless state of mind and body should not be over looked.

    This is a hard one. It really is. I feel like AA has so permitted, not only recovery, but sexuality, religion, society at it's very core, that there will be casualties in the battle against it. I have no answer as to the best way to quit. I'm a Christian, so I should simply say just go to a Church, but they will send you to AA too... which is sad. I hope that people come across this if they are looking for help. I come from a full bloated family of Alcoholics and they all stopped on their own when they were ready. Some when they hit the bottom, some when they got mature and tired of carrying the 100 pound bag of pain. Some made it with their family, some without. Some with jail, some without. But none with any treatment. I don't feel like it's my role to have an answer, just to clear the way for new ones. I feel like that is the problem with the recovery mentality. It's different for everyone. Everyone is particularly made, we're not Hitler's great uberman. We're individuals with souls, and the problem is, we Americans, find it much easier to treat people like genetic cattle than the way a beautiful creation should be treated.. one at a time. It's the Scientific age, and we're it's science projects. My "Recovery" Story? It was miraculous. Din't want it, Didn't ask for it, Didn't do anything but go to sleep and woke up a with a new heart, without 1% of any help from me. I'll write about this on my post sometime soon.

    I really respect you. You sound like a man that really cares... sorry if I sounded rude, i'm just sorta spunky and passionate about this cause, and just answered a mailbox full of hate mail. Your a refreshing read!
  • soberguy Nov 23, 2009 @ 12:26 am | delete
    There is a lot of negative information about the 12 steps here. You haven't offered an alternative solution besides a moderate drinking book??
    I personally got sober through a 12 step program and in the years that I have been involved with 12 step groups I haven't personally encountered any of the stuff you are posting. Now I am sure as true with any spiritual movement that you can find extremist (Muslim Terrorist, Branch Davidians) if you look hard enough but that doesn't mean that these wackos represent the actual movement.
    As a result of the 12 steps "I" am no longer driving down the same streets that your children play on while I am blasted out of my mind on drugs. I also no longer steal things from people like you to support my habit. Today as a direct result of working the 12 steps I have gone from a hopeless homeless drug addict alcoholic to a functioning law abiding citizen. The way I stay sober is to "help" people find a solution to their problem through the 12 steps.
    I personally hope that anyone reading this who has a real problem with addiction will not discount the 12 steps with out checking it out for them selves.This information could give someone a good reason to keep using another day while they continue searching for a solution that is "not" listed on this page.
  • ezravan Nov 23, 2009 @ 6:02 am | delete
    sorry man.. you have the same and only argument any 12 stepper can have.
    personal experience..because the research is all embarrassing. And, a view that does not look for truth, but pragmatics. My point is to be aware of what you are joining, by any Christian, religious, societal and even supreme court understanding.. this a religion by the words of the supreme court "extreme religiosity." If you are happy with joining this religion, than kudos, go for it... you know scientology is a strange beast, but it works.. and so have many cults. If that is all your interested in: what will work for you and not the greater good of society.. i piety you.. that my friend is an empty philosophy that has no defense.

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