No on California Prop 8 Arguments and Videos
This was the most costly ballot measure in the country, and emotions ran high on both sides of the debate. The main arguments in favor of the proposition were centered around the effects proponents said it could have on education and religion. This page presents some arguments against those alleged outcomes and asks you to think about the question of fairness and equality, and separation of church and state. Please read the excerpts from the California Supreme Court decision and the state Education Code and watch the related videos. Then see if you think California made the right decision.
This page was created before the vote on Proposition 8 took place, but has been updated to include information about the continuing legal battle for gay marriage in California.
CA Supreme Court Upholds Prop 8
On May 26, the state Supreme Court upheld the legality of Prop 8, but refused to strike down the 18,000 same-sex marriages performed while it was legal
CA Supreme Court Upholds Prop 8
The legal challenge after the election
1. Is Proposition 8 invalid because it is a revision of, rather than an amendment to, the state constitution?
2. Does Prop 8 violate the separation-of-powers doctrine under the California Constitution?
3. If Proposition 8 is not unconstitutional, what is its effect, if any, on the marriages of same-sex couples performed before the adoption of Proposition 8?
The court also ordered an expedited briefing schedule. Oral arguments in the case were heard on March 5, 2009. Two months later, in May, the Court refused to overturn the law, saying it was a lawful amendment to the state constitution, not a revision. But the Court also upheld the legality of the marriages performed before Prop 8 was passed.
Gay Marriage and Religious Freedom
What the California Supreme Court said in its ruling legalizing same-sex marriage
The majority of people who supported Prop 8 did so out of religious convictions. They think same-sex relationships are "not right" because, as gay opponents like to put it, "God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve," or "the Bible says so."If Proposition 8 had been defeated, it would not have erased these religious views or asked anyone to stop believing them. Individuals and religious organizations can continue to believe homosexuality is a sin or that same-sex marriage is wrong. But if Prop 8 is allowed to stand, the Constitution will be amended to take away a legal right same-sex couples had after the state Supreme Court ruling in May.
Ironically, at least a dozen Christian denominations already allow their clergy to perform same-sex marriage ceremonies. So same-sex couples HAVE the right to get married in a church. What they don't have in California if Proposition 8 goes into effect is the right to legal protection under the law.
Before the election, proponents of the measure suggested that churches could be forced to perform same-sex marriages or lose their tax-exempt status if they refuse. In fact, tax-exempt status is a federal issue controlled by the IRS, not the state, and the California Supreme Court specifically addressed the issue of religious leaders being "forced" to perform gay marriages in their ruling.
From the California Supreme Court decision:
"[A]ffording same-sex couples the opportunity to obtain the designation of marriage will not impinge upon the religious freedom of any religious organization, official, or any other person; no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices with regard to same-sex couples, and no religious officiant will be required to solemnize a marriage in contravention of his or her religious beliefs."
To learn more about what the Supreme Court said, you can read the official Supreme Court press release or the entire Court opinion.
"...no religion will be required to change its religious policies or practices"
- from the state Supreme Court opinion
Gay Marriage and the New Testament
The argument goes beyond Prop 8
The religious argument over gay marriage can't be resolved in one web page. Conservatives can point to scriptures such as 1 Corinthians 6:9 that lists those who will not inherit the kingdom of God, while liberals can point to scriptures such as Romans 14:13 and its instruction to "let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this - not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way."For those who'd like to read more about differing viewpoints of New Testament scripture about homosexuality, you'll find some excellent essays at Religious Tolerance.org, a site that attempts to provide objective information about a variety of religions and topics of interest to the public.
Another good reference is the California Council of Churches' Marriage Equality Study Guide, which was developed as a resource for religious congregations.
"...(legalized gay marriage) just isn't going to require any kind of teaching of personal relationships or lifestyle."
- state Superintendent of Public Instruction Jack O'Connell
Arguments Against Same-Sex Marriage: Questions to Think About
1. Should a state constitution take away existing rights? Same-sex marriage became legal in California in May 2008 and thousands of couples were able to marry for the first time. Prop 8 took away that right. Is the state constitution a place to enshrine discrimination?
2. Has legalized same-sex marriage impacted your life negatively? Same-sex marriage has been legal in Massachusetts since 2003 and in Connecticut since November 2008. It is also legal nationwide in five countries, including Canada. So has it changed your life? Has it changed your religious beliefs or impacted your relationships? Has it made you think less of marriage in general?
3. What non-Biblical reason is there to deny legal status to couples who want to be financially and legally responsible to one another for the rest of their lives? If you can't think of a non-Biblical reason, are you comfortable allowing the Bible to be the basis of a legal right (or lack thereof)? Who determines how the Bible is interpreted? At least a dozen Jewish movements and mainstream Christian denominations already allow clergy to perform marriage or union ceremonies for same-sex couples. Why should the views of these denominations be any less valid?
4. If same-sex marriage should be denied because the Bible says it is a sin, what about other relationship sins? What about adultery? What about divorce? What about people who live together "in sin" before getting married? Should they all be denied legal marriage rights? And why is it ok to ignore some outdated ideas in the Bible - for instance, people who work on the Sabbath should be put to death and slavery is ok and beating your children is encouraged - but not others?
5. If same-sex couples aren't allowed to marry and the law doesn't recognize their relationship, if a couple who has been together 10 or 20 years is in a car accident and one of them is severely injured, who should make decisions for the injured person? Who should be allowed to visit him or her in the hospital? Who should be financially responsible if he or she can't afford the bill, but the long-time partner can? Should the state be responsible for making decisions for an adult in a committed, loving relationship because the law refuses to accept that person's relationship?
6. Ten states and the District of Columbia currently have laws that recognize same-sex relationships to varying degrees, although only five of these grant virtually equal rights to same-sex couples. However, these relationships are NOT recognized by states outside the one in which they are granted, and the federal government does not recognize these relationships at all. NO same-sex couple in this country, including those in the states with full domestic partnership/civil union rights, has the same rights as a straight married couple. Marriage for straight couples, on the other hand, is recognized by all states and the federal government. So a straight couple who is married in California can move to Kansas or Utah or West Virginia or anywhere else and have full rights. But if a same-sex couple from California is merely traveling out of state and suddenly needs emergency medical care (see question 5 above), their registered domestic partnership is not recognized at all. Do you think that's fair?
7. How does denying financial and legal rights and responsibilities to a same-sex couple advance the "sanctity of marriage"? How are financial and legal responsibilities related to religious beliefs?
8. How important is a word? Should gay couples have the same legal rights under a different name, such as civil union or domestic partnership? Or should the word "marriage" continue to be the legal term and "holy matrimony" be the religious term?
9. In Wisconsin, it is actually a crime for a same-sex couple to get legally married in another state or country where it is legal and then return home to Wisconsin. But it's not a crime in Wisconsin to have a religious marriage ceremony in that state or in any other because the couple is not entering into a legal contract. Does that make sense? Can you imagine a state telling a straight couple they can't go to Las Vegas to get married unless they want to face criminal charges when they return home?
No on Proposition 8 Ad
Proponents of Prop 8 are using lies to scare you
http://www.NoOnProp8.com Proponents of Prop 8 continue to lie in their television ads. Dont buy their scare tactics. Watch our new ad to learn whats fiction and whats fact. Support the No On Prop 8 campaign by rating, commenting on, favoriting, and sharing this video with your friends. Find out more at http://noonprop8.com/ and on our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/No-on-Prop-8-Dont-Eliminate-Marriage-for-Anyone/29097894014 This video is closed captioned for the hearing impaired. When viewing these videos, please follow these instructions to enable closed captioning: When watching a video with captions/subtitles, you can... Turn them on and off: 1. Click the "up arrow" button on the bottom right of the video player. 2. Click the captions/subtitles menu button. This button will only be clickable if there are captions/subtitle for this video.
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Prop 8 Takes Away Existing Rights
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What the California Supreme Court Said About Equality
Why "separate but equal" domestic partnerships are not equal
From the Supreme Court ruling:
"While retention of the limitation of marriage to opposite-sex couples is not needed to preserve the rights and benefits of opposite-sex couples, the exclusion of same-sex couples from the designation of marriage works a real and appreciable harm upon same-sex couples and their children."
"...Furthermore, because of the historic disparagement of gay persons, the retention of a distinction in nomenclature by which the term "marriage" is withheld only from the family relationship of same-sex couples is all the more likely to cause the new parallel institution that has been established for same-sex couples to be considered a mark of second-class citizenship. Finally, in addition to the potential harm flowing from the lesser stature that is likely to be afforded to the family relationships of same-sex couples by designating them domestic partnerships, there exists a substantial risk that a judicial decision upholding the differential treatment of opposite-sex and same-sex couples would be understood as validating a more general proposition that our state by now has repudiated: that it is permissible, under the law, for society to treat gay individuals and same-sex couples differently from, and less favorably than, heterosexual individuals and opposite-sex couples."
Liberal Justices?
Six of the seven justices on the CA Supreme Court were appointed by Republican governors
Republicans Against Prop 8 - Don't Take California Backwards
1138 Legal Marriage Rights
That's the number of federal rights, benefits and privileges granted to married couples
TIME Magazine has an article noting how same-sex couples in committed relationships are negatively impacted by being denied these rights.
Marriage is a Legal Contract
Legal rights for having a religious marriage ceremony - 0
Federal legal rights for signing a state-sanctioned legal marriage license - 1138
Help the Budget Deficit; Legalize Gay Marriage!
Same-sex marriage is not only a financial issue for couples, but for the government as well
The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that on net, (the impact of allowing same-sex marriage) would improve the budget's bottom line to a small extent: by less than $1 billion in each of the next 10 years
The CBO may consider $1 billion to be a "small extent," as it's a small fraction of the overall federal budget, but that's still a big number. By the federal government's own analysis, keeping gay marriage illegal is costing ALL U.S. taxpayers $1 billion. Gives you something to think about, eh?
Has Ellen DeGeneres' Marriage Affected You?
Or did you even notice or care that she got married?
Ellen Urges Californians to Vote No on Prop. 8
www.noonprop8.com Ellen DeGeneres released this video message urging Californians to Vote No on Prop 8. Support the No On Prop 8 campaign by rating, commenting on, favoriting, and sharing this video with your friends. Find out more at http://noonprop8.com/ and on our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/No-on-Prop-8-Dont-Eliminate-Marriage-for-Anyone/29097894014 This video is closed captioned for the hearing impaired. When viewing these videos, please follow these instructions to enable closed captioning: When watching a video with captions/subtitles, you can... Turn them on and off: 1. Click the "up arrow" button on the bottom right of the video player. 2. Click the captions/subtitles menu button. This button will only be clickable if there are captions/subtitle for this video.
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Gay Marriage News
What's happening with same-sex marriage
Fetching RSS feed... please stand byPermission to Marry
Permission
"Whose permission would you need to get married to the person you love?" Winner of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Rights Award at the sixth annual "Media that Matters" film festival. - Produced by Public Interest: http://www.publicinterest.tv - Michael Franzini, President and Creative Director - Dave Isser, Executive Producer - CC Distribution license: Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0, http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/2.0/
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6 Arguments in Favor of Marriage Equality
A well-written blog post against Prop 8
Prop 8 and the California Education Code
What the Ed Code says about marriage
Prop 8's impact on education was one of the main issues of the campaign. The Yes on 8 campaign argued, "...schools will now be required to teach students that gay marriage is the same as traditional marriage, starting with kindergarteners." (From the ProtectMarriage.com website)They cited California Education Code Section 51890 to support this claim. However, even before the election, a judge ruled that this claim was misleading, and the State Superintendent of Public Instruction told The Chronicle, "...(legalized gay marriage) just isn't going to require any kind of teaching of personal relationships or lifestyle."
Here is what the relevant section of the code says:
51890. (a) For the purposes of this chapter, "comprehensive health education programs" are defined as all educational programs offered in kindergarten and grades 1 to 12, inclusive, in the public school system, including in-class and out-of-class activities designed to ensure that:
(1) Pupils will receive instruction to aid them in making decisions in matters of personal, family, and community health, to include the following subjects:
...(D) Family health and child development, including the legal and financial aspects and responsibilities of marriage and parenthood.
In August 2008, Sacramento County Superior Court Judge Timothy Frawley ruled that Prop 8 supporters must remove wording from their official ballot argument saying schools would be required to teach children there is no difference between gay marriage and traditional marriage. The judge said the argument was false, since "...children cannot be required to attend any health-related instruction, including instruction on the subject of marriage, against their parents' will." The judge cited California Education Code Section 51240.
That section of the code says:
51240. (a) If any part of a school's instruction in health conflicts with the religious training and beliefs of a parent or guardian of a pupil, the pupil, upon written request of the parent or guardian, shall be excused from the part of the instruction that conflicts with the religious training and beliefs.
Freedom is a Republican Value
Why Republican Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger was against Prop 8
Should Prop 8 Be Passed or Defeated?
Yes or No on Proposition 8?
Fetching blurbs now... please stand byYes, we need to protect marriage
LINDA says:
I SAY YES TO PROPOSITION 8
Posted June 11, 2009
Alphome04 says:
Yes, we need to protect marriage. All of this debate is really null and void. The people of this state have voted and and the majority have voted for marriage between a man and a woman. The foundation of the country is based upon the majority vote. What is the problem? The people have voted! Just because Hollywood or other minorities don't like or agree with the majority is not reason for the liberal courts to make laws. That is not their job. I have more bad news for gays, the majority of the country are against same sex marriage also.
Posted February 25, 2009
JanaMurray says:
I have to disagree, the natural family is the best way to raise children. Children need to have a father and a mother, not some other variation. I a sick and tired of our children being exposed to deviant unnatural lifestyles, keep it private if you are going to behave that way. Stop spreading your disease.
Posted October 30, 2008
says:
YES , marriage is a contract or covenant with GOD as CO-CREATORS of human life. It goes back to adam and eve. Gays CANNOT claim CO-CREATOR STATUS. If prop 8 is defeated, God will continue to punish our country and our economy. Be smart, dont mess with the Almighty, BE happy with Civil Unions, and stop ^%$#ing with our Biblical Constructs!Marriage is not a RIGHT given to 2 men or 2 women or a Man and a Cow or dog. It is from GOD to A MAN and a WOMAN to Produce CHILDREN ! You have to be pretty stupid to not see that ! the rest is just whining liberals trying to legitimize a DEMONIC SEXUAL PRACTICE of Homosexuality
Posted October 28, 2008
No, we shouldn't take away rights
Elle13 says:
vote NO for equality for all people!
Posted December 04, 2009
Stefanie says:
we shouldnt take away the rights. From reading the left side of this discussion board, i noticed "God" pop up in nearly every single argument. God is just an idea, one that you may have faith in. However, there must be separation of church and state in order for our government to function peacefully. The bible was written thousands of years ago, in a dead language that no one can interpret perfectly. Who are we to say that it was interpreted correctly in the first place. These ideals were those from 203480238409823048 years ago. Am i being blasphemous? Or is ridiculing, hating, and disrespecting another human life, a sin?
Posted October 07, 2009
Charlie says:
I see this issue a little differently, perhaps - Proposition 8 is a clear violation of the California Constitution. The California Supreme Court has ruled in favor of same-sex marriage and no voter referendum can single out one class of citizens and deny them court-protected rights. This case is quite clear. Proposition 8 will undoubtedly be struck down once the US Supreme Court hears the case.
However - the current challenge before the U.S. Supreme Court concerns the constitutionality of Proposition 8, and not the issue of same-sex marriages directly. Once that issue is brought before the U.S. Supreme Court (if they decide to hear it,) I believe same sex marriages will be over-ruled. Prior case law has already determined that certain rights and protections can be afforded to one gender over the other so long as there is a clear difference in rights and/or protections needed as a result of specific gender requirements or norms. For example, even before Clinton's Marriage and Family Leave Act, the courts determined that women could not be penalized in the work place once they became pregnant. (Pregnancy used to result in an automatic discharge from the military, for example.)
In my view, marriage is not a right - and to compare this discussion to the Civil Rights Act is an insult to the struggles against race and gender intolerance of the 1960's. The issues are in no way related. Marriage is a responsibility, not a right.
Marriage has traditionally been established as a protection for women and children who had no power and no resources as a result of their condition. Even today, women who get pregnant must make a choice between family and career - no matter how hard they try, it is impossible to do both well at the same time. As a result, women's career paths typically diverge from their male counterparts once they decide to have kids and this sacrifice must be protected by a legal contract between two people who are committed to making these sacrifices in order to promote strong and healthy families. No matter how much people might take the view that marriage and family are separate issues - "single mothers can make it just fine", "don't have kids if you can't afford it", etc. The fact is, we would become a selfish and rotten society if we held these values over all - our primary duty as a society is to promote future generations and to grow and promote a lasting legacy. Unfortunately, the 50% divorce rate and the fact that 40% of kids born last year were born to unmarried mothers undermines somewhat this "traditional marriage" argument - time will tell whether these statistics represent a future trend or simply an historical anomaly.
Homosexual couples who decide to have kids do not face these same issues - they're sacrifices for family are of a different kind and are made against the backdrop of two seemingly equal partners. Which half of the same-sex couple makes the greater sacrifice for children and needs short-term protection as a result? There is no reason for the legal protection afforded by marriage and therefore I think when a direct challenge to same-sex marriage protections comes before the U.S. Supreme Court, they will ultimately vote to strike down those protections.
That doesn't mean that two people who are committed to each other's long-term health and happiness should not be celebrated by all. It's just a question of what kinds of legal hoops they must jump through in order to get those similar protections that come automatically with marriage. It also means that those homophobes who are so committed to protecting "traditional marriage" should work harder to reduce the divorce rate and decrease the single-mother birth rate.
Posted August 22, 2009
tannie says:
people who says *Yes* on prop 8 have their reasons..but the thought behind that is, they hate gays and don't want their kids to be that way, well..you can't make a person the way you want them to be...they are who they are and....^^ *g2g*
Posted July 23, 2009
tanny says:
wtf is prop 8
Posted July 23, 2009
I'm No on Prop 8
Equality for all?
Hello, I'm No On Prop 8
Fashioned after the beloved "Mac vs. PC" ads, this spots is designed to highlight the absurdity behind support for Prop 8. Vote No on Prop 8! http://www.noonprop8.com Support the No On Prop 8 campaign by rating, commenting on, favoriting, and sharing this video with your friends. Find out more at http://noonprop8.com/ and on our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/No-on-Prop-8-Dont-Eliminate-Marriage-for-Anyone/29097894014
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Rebuttal to "Six Consequences . . . if Proposition 8 Fails"
Mormon legal scholar calls six consequences memo "misleading"
Morris A. Thurston, a Mormon legal scholar, has responded publicly, saying that the advertising claims for the Yes on 8 campaign are "misleading."
Thurston's response makes has been posted to Mormons for Marriage, a website sponsored by Mormons who do not support their Church's active campaign against gay marriage.
The complete text is also available on the No on Prop 8 site.
Not All Prop 8 Opponents Are Gay
The Thorons - Dont Eliminate Marriage for Anyone
http://www.NoOnProp8.com Sam and Julia Thoron offer a heartfelt message about their daughter, Liz, whose right to marry the person she loves will be eliminated if Prop 8 passes. Support the No On Prop 8 campaign by rating, commenting on, favoriting, and sharing this video with your friends. Find out more at http://noonprop8.com/ and on our Facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/pages/No-on-Prop-8-Dont-Eliminate-Marriage-for-Anyone/29097894014 This video is closed captioned for the hearing impaired. When viewing these videos, please follow these instructions to enable closed captioning: When watching a video with captions/subtitles, you can... Turn them on and off: 1. Click the "up arrow" button on the bottom right of the video player. 2. Click the captions/subtitles menu button. This button will only be clickable if there are captions/subtitle for this video.
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What Happens After Prop 8?
The latest legal arguments against Proposition 8
Proponents of same-sex marriage filed three court challenges the day after Prop 8 passed. According to the Associated Press, "the lawsuits raise a rare legal argument: that the ballot measure was actually a dramatic revision of the California Constitution rather than a simple amendment. A constitutional revision must first pass the Legislature before going to the voters."In addition, 43 Democratic state legislators have asked the state Supreme Court to void Prop 8, saying in a friend of the court brief, "If Proposition 8 takes effect, this court will no longer be the final arbiter of the rights of minorities."
What Will the Supreme Court Decide on the Prop 8 Challenge?
Will the court invalidate or uphold the proposition?
My prediction:
lisadh, at 6pm on February 26, 2009 predicts:
I predict the court will decide the proposition was a revision to the state constitution, not an amendment, and will send it to the legislature.
Reader predictions:
Fetching predictions now... please stand bylisadh, at 11am on March 6, 2009 predicts:
After listening to oral arguments, I change my prediction. I think the Supreme Court will uphold the validity of the 18,000 same-sex marriages performed when it was legal, but will not overturn Prop 8 because a strong enough case wasn't made to support the notion that it was a revision to the constitution rather than an amendment.
Fetching predictions now... please stand byProp 8 Protest Photos
On November 15, 2008, people around the country simultaneously rallied in 300 cities to protest Prop 8's passage and the other anti-gay marriage amendments around the nation. These photos were taken from one rally in Sacramento, CA. For more information about other post-Prop 8 activities for marriage equality, visit JoinTheImpact.com.
Keith Olbermann on Gay Marriage
More No on Proposition 8 Lenses
More food for thought.-
California Prop 8 & Gay Marriage
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In November, California voters chose to amend the state Constitution and take away rights from some citizens. In May 2008, the California Supreme Court ruled that denying same-sex couples the right to marry violated the equal protection and inalienab...
What Do You Think?
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- Kylyssa Kylyssa Jun 29, 2009 @ 5:49 pm
- Thank you for this lens! I imagine our grandchildren will look back at this legislation with the same disgust and shame as we feel about the anti-miscegenation laws or segregation. Separate but equal is anything but. Equality comes only from fairness and when one group of people is treated unfairly there is equality for none.
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- ShadesofGay ShadesofGay May 3, 2009 @ 5:11 pm
- Thank you for this comprehensive lens. I hope that those who are against legalizing LGBT marriage read with an open mind and heart... discrimination is part of the reason that so many LGBT people kill themselves, and I have a hard time understanding how people can sanction such things.
5*.
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- lisadh lisadh Feb 23, 2009 @ 2:34 pm | in reply to LairMistress
- Thanks for giving an update on what's happening in Washington!
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- LairMistress LairMistress Feb 18, 2009 @ 5:22 pm
- Hi from Seattle! Great lens! Our state legislature is working on a measure granting most of the rights of marriage to same-sex couples, without calling their commitments "marriage". Of course, religious right types don't like this one, either (ours is the region currently afflicted with Ken Hutcherson and Joe Fuiten). It's becoming known as something like the "marriage in all but name" measure. Kind of confusing, though well-intentioned. Anyway, here's to Prop 8 being tossed out shortly! Despair not, nor surrender
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- Margo_Arrowsmith Margo_Arrowsmith Nov 15, 2008 @ 6:09 am
- This is a comprehensive lens. Beautifully done.
My Baptist Church has been doing ceremonies for years. When we started some people were afraid that it would keep straights from the church or worse that young families with kids would leave. Since we started doing it the church has flourished. We have straights and gays together on Sunday morning and throughout the week. And the population of young families with kids has multiplied.
It is odd that some people are in favor of civil unions but not weddings. That is turned around. Gays can have weddings and get married, its the civil laws that they can't have.
***** and I would give more if I could.
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More on Same-Sex Marriage from Wikipedia
Same-sex marriage (also called gay marriage) is a legally or socially recognized marriage between two persons of the same biological sex or social gender.
Same-sex marriage is a civil rights, political, social, moral, and religious issue in many nations. The conflict arises over whether same-sex couples should be allowed to enter into marriage, be forced to use a different status, such as a civil union, which is usually more limited, or not have any such rights. A related issue is whether the term "marriage" should be applied. Marriage: Both Civil and Religious, Pamela Taylor, The Washington Post, July 31, 2009.Marriage a Civil Right, not Sacred Rite, Susan Smith, The Washington Post, July 30, 2009; accessed 9/12/2009.
Support for same-sex marriage is often based upon what is regarded as a universal human rights issue, mental and physical health concerns, equality before the law,Prop. 8 Challenged in Federal Court, American Foundation for Equal Rights, May 27, 2009. and the goal of norm...
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