Separation of Church and State

First, I am NOT an anti-religious person, but I fear the consequences of a nation that depends upon a specific or general religion for it's rules of behavior, and history has adequately demonstrated that my concerns are valid. I have no problem with Judeo-Christian beliefs, but that doesn't mean that I want a preacher to run my country (USA). I would like to make it clear that I think that anyone should be entitled to their beliefs, but except for their guarantees of free speech, etc., I draw the line when religious fevor causes harm or abuse to individuals (murdering abortionists, persecuting people because of their beliefs, etc.) or when political decisions are made, not with unbiased data as the result of studies or investigations, but upon a particular person or person's religious viewpoint. And I'm against any political party or politician that tries to impose laws on the populace based on their own religious beliefs. History is rife with abuses in the name of God, and it still goes on today. There are a host of examples of Catholics vs Protestants, Muslims vs Jews, Christians vs Jews or gays or Muslims or Catholics or other Christian sects, Muslims vs Hindus, etc., etc.

I'm against book burners and people who believe that they are doing God's will when they persecute others or attempt to restrict other people's freedoms or impose their beliefs. These people are, to me, control freaks who think everyone must play by their rules. Religion is often used as the basis for building a power base.

I believe that you have the right to your religious beliefs, but you do not have the right to impose them upon others. If you believe that you're on a mission from God to save others regardless of how you try to do it, then you may or may not have the right to do it where you live but I would like to point out that the Taliban probably have similar beliefs and your attitude isn't all that different.

The Wikipedia page on Theocracy states: "Theocracy is a form of government in which a state is understood as governed by immediate divine guidance especially a state ruled by clergy, or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided."

I can't think of a single theocracy under which I would want to live.

So much for my own opinions. I thought it only fair that you understand my personal position.

The First Amendment Center has commissioned this annual national survey of American attitudes about the First Amendment since 1997. The State of the First Amendment 2009 is the 13th survey in this series. This year's survey repeats some of the questions that have been administered since 1997 and includes a new series of questions exploring perceptions and uses of new media sources, such as Twitter.

For example: "When asked to identify the specific freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment, 55% named free speech, followed by 18% who mentioned freedom of religion and 16% who said freedom of the press. Fourteen percent mentioned freedom of assembly and only 4% named the right to petition the government. Thirty-nine percent of Americans could not name any of the freedoms in the First Amendment."

This report summarizes the findings from the 2009 survey and, where appropriate, depicts how attitudes have changed over time.

(In a nutshell, this is all I can think of. If you would like this short list expanded, please leave your comments in the guestbook.)

The phrase "separation of church and state" does not appear anywhere in the constitution. This is correct, however in my opinion it ignores the content and intent of the First Amendment.,

Fundamentalist Christians have argued that the United States is a Christian country, and they state many references to this point of view. They conclude that Congress did not intend separation of church and state. While this position is hotly debated, it is true that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs (beliefs and ethics common to Jews and Christians). There weren't many Buddhist, Muslim, Hindu or other non-Christian believers in the country at that time.

I once head a Muslim cleric talking during a newscast, and he asked the question that if you believe in God, how could you possibly have separation of church and state? Obviously this is a man of religion, but I doubt that many Christians would want him to determine U.S. law.

An excerpt from Thomas Jefferson's 1777 Draft of a Bill for Religious Freedom: "that the impious presumption of legislators and rulers, civil as well as ecclesiastical, who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world and through all time"

And this: "that our civil rights have no dependance on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry"

Read the complete document.

After becoming President, Thomas Jefferson wrote this to the Danbury Baptist Church: (excerpt) "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

The text of the First Amendment; some early draft amendments to the religion section were:

First attempt by James Madison on June 7, 1789: "The Civil Rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, nor on any pretext infringed. No state shall violate the equal rights of conscience or the freedom of the press, or the trial by jury in criminal cases."

A later Senate version: "Congress shall make no law establishing articles of faith or a mode of worship, or prohibiting the free exercise of religion."

Read the other submissions and you can see how the founding fathers attempted to get the wording correct and what they were trying to accomplish (and also other comments on the subject) at religioustolerance.org

Here's an example of the type of religious law in effect in the early colonies. This is an excerpt from The Maryland Toleration Act (1649): "That whatsoever person or persons within this Province and the Islands thereunto belonging shall from henceforth blaspheme God, that is Curse him, or deny our Saviour Jesus Christ to bee the sonne of God, or shall deny the holy Trinity the father sonne and holy Ghost, or the Godhead of any of the said Three persons of the Trinity or the Unity of the Godhead, or shall use or utter any reproachfull Speeches, words or language concerning the said Holy Trinity, or any of the said three persons thereof, shalbe punished with death and confiscation or forfeiture of all his or her lands and goods to the Lord Proprietary and his heires."
*Note who received the forfeited lands and goods, the Lord Proprietary - (in Colonial America) an owner, governor, or grantee of a proprietary colony.

Many people fled Europe to escape religious persecution, but then attempted to impose their own brand of persecution in the New World. Puritans, stressing God's judgment and wrath, wanted people to worship like good Puritans; those who did not confrom were fined, banished, whipped, or imprisoned.

In addition to the Salem witch trials in which 19 people were hung and one poor unfortunate, Giles Corey, was crushed to death with stones (see accompanying illustration) for refusing to enter a plea, over 150 people had been arrested and imprisoned for witchcraft, and 12 other persons had been executed in New England for witchcraft prior to those trials.

These are not the only examples of persecution by religion. For example, read about some of the intolerance discussed in "Notes on the State of Virginia" by Thomas Jefferson.

These are not the only examples of persecution by religious leaders, but they should suffice to illustrate that early Colonial America wasn't exactly a place of free worship.

Obviously there would be a lot less hatred in the world if people followed the 'Love Thy Neighbor' law. A law given to us by Christ himself.

How often do we see religious bigotry in the news, even from our politicians? It's very common. People use quotes from the bible to justify their persecution of others as if these quotes supercede the words of Jesus. Jesus didn't say love thy neighbor unless he's gay, or Muslim, or Catholic, or Mormon or some other faith, or lifestyle or personal belief .Love thy neighbor is the second most important thing you are supposed to do; only loving God is more important, eveything else is less important and nothing else overrides it!. Nothing. (I'm only using christians as an example because there are so many of us in the USA; people with other religious beliefs also violate their teacher's words. It isn't just a christian thing.) It's amazing how the human race finds reasons, even in religion, to suppress and dominate others.

Wikipedia states "A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices, especially one exhibiting intolerance, and animosity toward those of differing beliefs. The predominant usage in modern English refers to persons hostile to those of differing sex, race, ethnicity, religious belief or spirituality, nationality, language, sexual orientation, and age; and to those from a different region, with non-normative gender identity, those who are homeless, and those with various medical disorders, particularly behavioural and addictive disorders. Forms of bigotry may have a related ideology or world view."

The USA is supposed to be about freedom from persecution, freedom of religion, freedom of choice, freedom of speech, etc., but how often do we see people stepping on these rights? It's bigotry and anti-American.

Lest you think that the above stands alone as examples of excess in curtailing individual rights under the threat of severe punishment, please read the 1672 General Laws and Liberties of the Massachusetts Colony below, or the view the original pages [page 1] [page 2].

An excerpt from a copy in the U.S. Library of Congress:
Idolatry.
If any man after Legal Conviction fhall HAVE or WORSHIP any other God but the LORD GOD, he fhall be put to death, Exod. 22.20. Deut 13. 6, 10. Deut 17. 2,6.

Witch-craft.,
2. If any Man or Woman be a WITCH, that is, Hath or Confolteth with a familiar Spirit they shall be put to death, Exod. 22. 18. Levit. 20. 27. Deut. 18. 10,11

Blafphemy.
3. If any Perfon within this Jurifdiction, whether Christian or Pagan, fhall wittingly and willingly prefume to BLASPHEME the holy name of God, FATHER,SON,or HOLY-GHOST, with direct, expreffe, prefumptuous, or high-handed Blafphemy, either by wilfull or obftinate denying the true God, or his Creation, or Government of the WOrld, or fhall curfe God in like manner, or reproach the holy Religion of God, as if it were but a politick devife; to keep ignorant men in awe; or fhall utter any other kind of Blafphemy of the like nature and degree, they shall be put to death, Levit. 24. 15, 16,

Murther.
4. If any perfon fhall commit any wilfull MURTHER upon premeditate malice, hatred ot cruelty, not in a mans neceffary and juft defence, nor by meer cafualty againft his will, he fhall be put to death, Exod. 21, 12, 13. Numb. 35. 31.
5. If any perfon flayeth another fuddenly, in his ANGER or CRUELTY of paffion, he shall be put to death, Levit. 24. 17. Numb. 35. 20, 21.
Poyfoning. 6. If any person fhall flay another through guile, either by POYSONING or other fuch Devilith practife, he shall be put to death, Exod. 21. 14.

Beftiality.
7. If any Man or Woman fhall LYE with any beast or Bruit Creature, by carnal Copulation, they fhall furely be put to death, and the Beaft shall be flain and buried, and not eaten, Levit. 20. 15,16.

Sodomy.
8. If any Man LYETH with MANKINDE as he lyeth with a Woman, both of them have committed Abomination, they both fhall furely be put to death, unlefs the one party were forced, or be under fourteen years of age, in which cafe he fhall be feverely punifhed, Levit. 20. 13.
Adultry. 9. If any Perfon COMMIT ADULTERY with a Married or Efpoufed Wife, the Adulterer and the Adulterefs fhall furely be put to death, Levit. 20. 19 & 18. 20. Deut. 22. 23, 17.

Man-ftealing.
10. If any man STEALETH A MAN or Man-kinde, he fhall furely be put to death, Exod. 21. 16.
Falfe witnts. 11. If any Man rife up by FALSE-WITNESSE wittingly, and of purpofe to take away a mans Life, he fhall be put to death, Deut. 19. 16. & 13. 16.

Confpiracy, Rebellien.
12. If any Man CONSPIRE and ATTEMPT any INVASION, INSURRECTION or publick REVELLION agamft our Common-wealth: or fhall endeavour to furprize and Town or Towns, Fort or Forts therein; or fhall Treacheroufly and perfidcoufly attempt the Alteration and Subverfion of our frame of Polity or Government fundamentally, he fhall be put to death, Numb. 16. 2 Sam. 3. 2.Sam. 18. 2 Sam. 20.
Children curfe or fmite Parents. 13. if any Childe or Children above fixteen years old, and of fufficient underfanding, fhall CURSE or SMITE their natural FATHER or MOTHER, he or they fhall be put to death, unlefs it can be fufficiently teftified, that the Parents have been unchriftianly negligent in the education of fuch Children, or fo provoked them by extreme and cruel Correction, that they ahve been forced thereunto to perferve thenfelves from Death or Maiming, Exod. 21. 17. Levit. 20. 9. Exod. 21.13.

Rebelliouf Son.
18. (sic) If as Man have a STUBBORN or REBELLIOUS SON of fufficient years of underftanding (viz) fixteen years of age, which will not obey the voice of his Father, or the voice of his Mother, and that when they had chaftened him, will not hearken unto them, the fhall his Father and Mother, being his natural Parents lay hold on him, and bring him to the Magiftrates affembled in COurt, and teftifie unto them, that their son is ftubborn and rebellious, and will not obey their voice and chaftifement, but lives in fundry and notorious Crimes: fuch a fon will be put to death, Deut. 22. 20, 21.

Rafz.
15. If any Man fhall RAVISH any maid, or fingle Woman, committing Carnal Copulation with her by force, againft her own will; that is above the age of ten years, he fhall be punifhed either with death or with fome other grievous punifhment according to circumftances, as the Judges or General Court fhall determine, [1649.]

Rape of a Child.
17. (sic) Forafmuch as Carnal Copulation with a Woman Childe, under the age of ten years, is a more hainous fin then with one of more years, as being more inhumane and unnatural in it felf, and more perrilous to the life and wll-being of the Childe:
It is therefore Ordered by this Court and the Authority thereof, that the whov

At this point the pages I can review online are cut off. I think that this document illustrates some of the frightening aspects of government control by religious zealots. And religious control always seems to find a way to swing from the moderate to the absolute. History is rife with examples of persecution by religious leaders.

The Bloudy Tenent of Persecution for Cause of Conscience, written in 1644, is a book about wrongful government force by Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island. He was also the co-founder of the First Baptist Church in America. Quoting Wikipedia.org, "Using biblical reasoning, the book argues for a "wall of separation" between church and state and for state toleration of various Christian denominations, including Catholicism, and also "paganish, Jewish, Turkish or anti-Christian consciences and worships." The book takes the form of a dialogue between Truth and Peace and is a response to correspondence by Boston minister, John Cotton, regarding Cotton's support for state enforcement of religious uniformity in Massachusetts. Through his interpretation of the Bible, Williams argues that Christianity requires the existence of a separate civil authority that may not generally infringe upon liberty of conscience which Williams interpreted to be a God given right. The Wiki page goes on to state: "The original Bloudy Tenent was later cited as a philosophical source for the First Amendment to the United States Constitution and several writings of Thomas Jefferson regarding religious freedom."

In a landmark 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court of the U.S. ruled: "The 'establishment of religion' clause of the First Amendment means at least this: Neither a state nor the Federal Government can set up a church. Neither can pass laws which aid one religion, aid all religions or prefer one religion over another. Neither can force nor influence a person to go to or to remain away from church against his will or force him to profess a belief or disbelief in any religion. No person can be punished for entertaining or professing religious beliefs or disbeliefs, for church attendance or non-attendance. No tax in any amount, large or small, can be levied to support any religious activities or institutions, whatever they may be called, or whatever form they may adopt to teach or practice religion. Neither a state nor the Federal Government can, openly or secretly, participate in the affairs of any religious organizations or groups and vice versa. In the words of Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect 'a wall of separation between Church and State.'" (330 U.S. 1, 15-16.)

What if the country has a similar demographic to Maryland and the laws were established by the dominant religion? Which religion do you think it would be?

The Wikipedia page on Maryland states: "Maryland was founded for the purpose of providing religious toleration of England's Roman Catholic minority. Nevertheless, Parliament later reversed that policy and discouraged the practice of Catholicism in Maryland. Due to immigration patterns, Catholics have not been a majority in Maryland since early Colonial times. Nonetheless, Catholicism is the largest single denomination in Maryland. As of the year 2000, the RCMS reported that the second and third largest denominational groups in Maryland are Mainline Protestant, and Evangelical Protestant. The Catholic Church has the highest number of adherents in Maryland (at 952,389), followed by the United Methodist Church with 297,729 members reported. Judaism is the largest non-Christian religion with 241,000 adherents, or 4.3% of the total population. The Islamic community in Maryland is small but it is growing, especially in the Baltimore area."

Roman Catholics are the largest Christian denomination today, with over one billion followers.

A good example of change in the United States is the rapid increase in the number of Hispanics immigrants; they have comprised over fifty percent of the total number in the last ten years. It is projected that by 2050, the non-Hispanic white population will decreae to about 50% of the population; down from about 70% today. Recently, Asian immigration has matched that of the Hispanics. As these changes occur, so will the mix of religious views.

Maybe Christian-Science members should set the laws. Since they don't believe in specific medical procedures, or medical procedures in general, because after all it's God's will that makes you sick, then we could get rid of the overhead of all of the medical and pharmaceutical expenses. That's one way to fix the health care cost problems; simply forbid treatment. (Okay, I'm not being serious enough, but there ARE people who belive that medical treatment is against God's will.)

Most people who are against separation of church and state mean that they don't want separation of THEIR views, not some other religion. They want this to be a country where THEY set the rules. This is, in my opinion, a dangerous attitude and I doubt that they would feel that way if religions other than their own influenced federal law. Like Maryland, no one can predict the future mix of religions. Most sects believe that all of the other sects are wrong anyway.

The Wikipedia page on Christine O'Donnell states:
"Originally a political liberal who believed in abortion rights, O'Donnell has said she experienced an epiphany at age 21 when she saw graphic descriptions and pictures in medical journals of how an abortion is performed. "'There's only truth and not truth,' O'Donnell said she realized at that moment. 'You're either very good or evil.'" She dropped her acting aspirations, began thinking about moral issues, and became an evangelical Christian, due to the appeal of the moral certainty she felt the movement offered. She chose to live a chaste life, began espousing sexual abstinence, and joined the College Republicans.
O'Donnell has been described as a former Catholic turned evangelical Christian. The News Journal reported that she converted back to Catholicism in 2006. She told The New York Times in 2010 that she embraces both faiths, and has said she now attends Catholic and Protestant services."

That wikipedia page also states: "O'Donnell criticized Coons for saying that it would violate the Constitution to teach creationism in the public schools. She also said that Coons' belief that the theory of evolution should be taught in public schools was an example of how he believes in big government mandates and "imposing...beliefs on the local schools." Interestingly, O'Donnell seems to fail to recognize that she is trying to impose her own beliefs on public schools.

In 2010, O'Donnell lost the general election to Coons; Coons received 57% of the votes to O'Donnell's 40%.

The Associated Press reported In December 2010 that that federal authorities (prosecutors and FBI agents) have opened a criminal investigation into O'Donnell's alleged use of campaign funds for personal expenses.

John Shimkus, Republican Representative for Illinois's 19th congressional district, works on the following Congressional Committees:

NATO Parliamentary Assembly
Committee on Energy and Commerce

• Subcommittee on Communications and Technology
  
• Subcommittee on Energy and Power
• Subcommittee on Environment and Economy (Chairman)
• Subcommittee on Health

Rep Shimkus, a Christian conservative, said "I do believe in the Bible as the final word of God and I do believe that God said the Earth would not be destroyed by a flood." He also said "Now, do I believe in climate change? In my trip to Greenland, the answer is yes. The climate is changing. The question is more about the costs and benefits and trying to spend taxpayer dollars on something that you cannot stop versus the changes that have been occurring forever. That's the real debate."

This, from the chairman of the Subcommittee on Environment and Economy, indicates that Shimkus believes that religious beliefs should take precedent over commonly accepted scientific studies. I take issue with his words "something that you cannot stop"; it assumes that the present climate changes are a natural phenomenon and humans didn't cause the problem. A simplified response would be that if we caused the problem, we have the ability to undo the harm (until we reach the tipping point).

Rewriting History - From one article: Teachers in Texas will be required to cover the Judeo-Christian influences of the nation's Founding Fathers, but not highlight the philosophical rationale for the separation of church and state. Curriculum standards also will describe the U.S. government as a "constitutional republic," rather than "democratic," and students will be required to study the decline in value of the U.S. dollar, including the abandonment of the gold standard.

It goes on: "Decisions by the board -- made up of lawyers, a dentist and a weekly newspaper publisher among others -- can affect textbook content nationwide because Texas is one of publishers' biggest clients."

From another Huffington Post article: The standards will guide how history and social studies are taught to some 4.8 million public school students over the next 10 years."

The mind is its own place, and in itself
Can make a Heaven of Hell, a Hell of Heaven.
~Paradise Lost; John Milton

View this artwork and the questions it asks.

The American Journal of Psychiatry published an article titled "Religious Affiliation and Suicide Attempt", wherein they state: "Religious affiliation is associated with less suicidal behavior in depressed inpatients. After other factors were controlled, it was found that greater moral objections to suicide and lower aggression level in religiously affiliated subjects may function as protective factors against suicide attempts."

Nonetheless, there are a few horrible examples of cult-like religious groups that have committed mass suicide and/or murder. Let us not forget that the so-called suicide bombers are mostly religious zealots. I think 'religious murderers' is a more accurate name for them.

Kristen Moulton wrote in The Utah News, Oct 22, 2010: "Nearly two-thirds of Americans believe that messages from U.S. religious pulpits are connected to the rising rates of suicide among gay youths, according to a new poll. And though Americans are split about whether they see homosexual activity as a sin, 72 percent say religion contributes to negative views of gays and lesbians."

Jim Jones (James Warren "Jim" Jones) (1931 - 1978) founded and headed the Peoples Temple. Under investigation by the U.S. Congress and a visit by Congressman Leo Ryan, 909 people, including 303 children, were murdered or committed suicide. Poison by cyanide was the suspected cause. Five people were also murdered at an airstip, including Congressman Ryan.

The Branch Davidians in Waco were a Protestant sect. From the Waco Tribune-Herald (Feb 27, '93): "If you are a Branch Davidian, Christ lives on a threadbare piece of land 10 miles east of here called Mount Carmel. He has dimples, claims a ninth-grade education, married his legal wife when she was 14, enjoys a beer now and then, plays a mean guitar, reportedly packs a 9mm Glock and keeps an arsenal of military assault rifles, and willingly admits that he is a sinner without equal."

Allegations ranged from physically abusing children, having multiple underage brides as young as 12 or 13 years old (polygamy & statutory rape). The newspaper reported that Koresh said he had sired over a dozen children, felt he was entitled to at least 140 wives, and that he could claim any of the women in his group as his own. He was also accused of dealing in firearms and illegally modifying firearms to convert them into machine guns. In the Waco raid, four ATF agents died in a gun battle along with six Davidians. After a second assault on the compound, 76 people died in a fire, including over 20 children & two pregnant women.

In addition, there was the Order of the Solar Temples (74 suicides), the non-religious cult Heaven's Gate (39 dead),and the Movement for the Restoration of the Ten Commandments of God (778 dead). These are not the only religious or cult-like mass suicides on record.