Should Scotland go for complete independence?
Ranked #1,216 in Culture & Society, #28,148 overall
From Scottish Home Rule to Scottish Independence?
A Scottish referendum will not automatically secure independence for Scotland, merely open negotiations with Westminister. Those are likely to be long and bitter, with David Cameron already saying he will fight with every fibre of his being to keep the United Kingdom in tact. One does have to ask why, since an independent Scotland would play right into Tory hands getting rid of those pesky Labour and Lib Dem voters that usually take the Scottish vote. Indeed, Scotland consistently votes against Tory government.
So what are the arguments for and against? I confess I am bias - I desperately want to see Scotland with full automony and free from obligations in Westminster, but I will try to put both sides.
JAN 2012 see added below 2 new polls regarding the proposed referendum.
Image: from the official Scottish Parliament website.
Copyright Notice
Apart from the first image, all photos here are by AnnMackieMiller and are copyright 2011.
The Background
Scottish History
The two countries continued as separate states until 1707 when the Union of Parliaments took place under Queen Anne. The Treaty of Union came into effect on the 1st May 1707 with its base and influence firmly in Westminster. Many continue to debate the wisdom of the Scottish Parliament signing the treaty but this took place in the backlash of a failed endeavour called the Darrien Scheme which virtually left Scotland bankrupt.
There is an excellent book by my old mentor, Chris Whatley, that gives you all the details. There is even some of my research in the book so it must be good!
There has always been some antagonism between the two countries no more so than during the Jacobite rebellions of 1715 and 1745. The last left the Scots soundly defeated and indeed persecuted in many ways. Hightened resentment was fueled by the Highland Clearances of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Huge numbers of crofters were cleared from the land to make way for sheep by largely absentee English landlords. Many people reading this today will be able to trace their ancestory back to those Clearances.
And so we stumbled on. In 1934 the Scottish Nationalist Party was created and in 1968 Winnie McEwan was the first SNP candidate elected to parliament in England. In the 1970s there was an upsurge in Nationalist feeling with the discovery of oil and gas in Scottish waters. A referendum on independence was held but never really had a chance of succeeding both by the way it was worded and due to the scaremongering campaigning by the NO party.
In 1997 another referendum was held on the question of a devolved parliament for Scotland and in 1998 the first Members of the Scottish Parliament were elected.
May 2011 saw the SNP gain the majority of seats in the Scottish parliament.
The Union Between Scotland and England
by Prof Chris Whatley
The Scots and the Union
Amazon Price: $24.19 (as of 02/23/2012)
Chris Whatley was my professor and mentor - there is even some of my research in the book so it must be good!
The River Tay in Perthshire
Arguments for complete Scottish independence
- Scotland has always retained its own Laws which are not applicable in England and vice versus. The law includes the unique verdict of Not Proven in criminal court when neither defence or prosecution have proved their point.
- Scotland has always retained its own education system. It is no accident that Scottish education is the envy of much of world and that so many great ideas and great inventions have come from Scotland. Scotland was at the forthfront of the Enlightenment and has always prided itself on the culture of even many working class people. Scotland continues to encourage all round education ensuring core elements are always included. In University, the undergraduate studies three subjects in the first year, three in the second, they can be second years of the first three years, but gives an rounded out education over many subjects and allows the student time to choose what is best suited for himself/herself. Case in point, Prince William at the University of St Andrews was at first to study for a degree in Art History (the dummy degree!) and changed to Geography for his honours degree.
- Scotland retains its own version of the Health Service. Scotland has a long history of medical research and medical breakthroughs that continue. The level of care, training and research remain at higher standards than the busier English health service.
- Enterprenurial skills - Scotland has plenty. Even with the dropping supplies of oil and gas in Scottish waters, Scotland could survive with the European Community. Arguments against full independence talk about taxes paid in Scotland without any mention of revenue gained from Scottish oil and gas.
- Proven governmental record - Since 1998, the Scottish Parliament has proven more than capable of running Scottish affairs.
Arguments against complete Scottish independence
- Scotland has no standing army since the disbanding of the Scottish regiments. Furthermore Scotland needs to remain within the UK for overall defence purposes.
- A United Kingdom carries more sway in European and World politics.
- Those against argue that Scotland could not stand alone financially. The argument is that Scottish taxes raise 27 billion pounds and public spending in Scotland is 40 billion pounds. Furthermore, Scotland could not compete on a global scale.
- Scottish gas and oil will last only another 40 years.
Links that ask and answer the for and against question
- What are the arguments for and against Scottish independence? - Yahoo! Answers
- Questions and answers
- Pros and Cons for Scottish Independence
- A concise summary for and against
Crail Harbour
The Debate Forum
Do you think Scotland should vote for complete independence from England
Fetching blurbs now... please stand byYes indeedy
madoc says:
Yes, provided that Wales gets independence too, and all five UK countries have a recognized status in Europe, which guarantees mutual support. FIVE countries?? England & The Channel islands, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and the Isle of Man!
Posted February 20, 2012
Euan says:
I believe Scotland is a Nation not a Region, therefore has the right to be independent. I've yet to hear a good argument for staying in the Union other than economic 'what ifs?' but the fact is that economics are uncertain regardless of country size etc. It was Westminster that created the debt and the industries that could have pulled us out of it.
1707 saw a need for trade Scotland to trade with Empire, now that's gone but we have the EU etc so Scotland should have an independent voice in the modern unions rather than a filtered voice through a redundant union. We should be free to make our own trade partners and see the benefits instead of lining Whitehall's pockets.
Posted February 16, 2012
TransplantedSoul says:
Yes. National boundaries are so much less important these days, especially with the EEC. England should try to take care of itself and get out of Northern IRELAND and surrounding areas. The days of occupation do not make sense any longer.
Posted February 11, 2012
EditionH says:
My view from Germany certainly is biased especially with the recent anti european and anti German follies the British government developed recently. Your arguments for independence are good and those against are weaker from my point of view. So I would say Scotland should go for independence
Posted January 20, 2012
elizathielker says:
I confess that I have trouble seeing any real argument against Scottish independence.
Posted January 19, 2012
No way
Curly01 says:
i'm a welsh citizen and would be disappointed if Scotland went their own way, yes i understand their right to be independent but would it be financially viable for the Scot's and all the other nations in the UK to split apart, i would think Not.
I did not want Wales devolution back in 1997, but it was the MP's vote that had the last say.
Posted February 19, 2012
Edutopia says:
Speaking as an outside observer I'd say that Scotland would gain more working within the structure of the UK than it would standing apart. That shouldn't stop the debate from happening though.
Posted February 14, 2012
CAMpics says:
Whilst I am completely in favour of Scotland having its own voice, to have complete dependence and break away from the United Kingdom would see both England and Scotland the poorer for it. I believe it would lead to Scotland's ruin. Beware of Scottish Salmon and Sturgeon!
Posted February 13, 2012
Scottish History
T.C. Smout
Edradour: The Smallest Whisky Distillary in Scotland
With tongue firmly in cheek...
Question "My son works for the passport office (or the Civil Service), surely he would lose his job?"
Scotland, like all other independent countries, would have its own passport office and civil service.
History of Scotland
Amazon book deals
"I watch EastEnders. They wouldn't show that on TV here if Scotland gained independence."
People in Dublin watch EastEnders. In fact, EastEnders is aired around the world in many English-speaking countries, including New Zealand, Australia and Canada. It is also shown throughout Europe, Africa and Asia. Furthermore, wih the age of digital television truly upon us, the idea that your viewing pleasure would be in any way seriously affected is highly unlikely.
Link to This Scotland Blog
- This Scotland: The Tabloid Arguments Against Independence
- The source of the quotes above.
A Squidoo referendum on Scottish Independence
Have your say
I was supposed to put in a debate module not a poll module so I've added one and kept this one to show all those lovely votes already in.
Books on Scotland
Amazon deals
January 2012
What do you think about David Cameron's interference in the decision about holding a referendum? The proposed referendum will ask the people of Scotland if they want to go for complete independence. Recently Cameron has been trying to force the issue saying the uncertainty of whether or not Scotland will remain in the Union is having an adverse effect on the economy - I don't know for sure but I suspect the English economy would suffer most.
What question would you ask on a referendum?
One debate that keeps cropping up is how a referendum would be phrased - the last one was very ambiguous, deliberately so, and that is why it failed.
It is now being suggested there be 3 questions only, yes or no and one for maximum devolution which is something that would give a Scottish government more independence but it would remain in the Union.
Travel guides to Scotland
Amazon books
..on a lighter note...
" I support a separate Scotland, on one proviso. That if the Tories regain power in England, you allow English left wingers asylum in Scotland. I could not stand 5 years of Conservative elitist dogma after the 18 years of hell under Thatcher."
Have you enjoyed your brief Scottish tour?
Anyone can leave a message here, not just Squidooers
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Edutopia
Feb 14, 2012 @ 3:54 am | delete
- Great lens, I learned quite a bit and it gave me a few things to think about.
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CNelson01
Feb 6, 2012 @ 5:09 pm | delete
- Very interesting. I'm English, Scotish and Irish by heritage and I can't bring myself to vote one way or another as I don't have a dog in the hunt. Freedom is almost always the best choice but serious issues of interdependence (fiscal, military and resources) must be worked out in advance to avoid problems.
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elizathielker
Jan 19, 2012 @ 9:34 pm | delete
- This is really good, I have only one niggle and that is that I didn't like the should Cameron interfere poll. I don't think he should interfere, but as he is the leader of the U.K and England he should be part of the debate.
If only to give the negligible arguments against. You seem very knowledgeable about this issue, so I shall ask you the question that is chewing my brain cells. Scotland uses the English currency currently, if Scotland became independent would they create their own financial centre, or would London continue to be centre for the pound? Would Edinburgh become a second London? Would the pound be like the euro, a multi country currency? Or would Scotland start their own currency? Use the Euro?
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Brite-Ideas
Jan 17, 2012 @ 10:29 pm | delete
- I found this so interesting, and can relate. In the early '90's there was a referendum in Quebec, Canada as to whether Quebec would separate from Canada. The whole process was gut-wrenching. I am a political junkie and followed it to a tee. The vote was close, nearly a yes. It bothered me a lot. Even though I'm from Ontario, I've lived in many of our provinces throughout my life, and consider every province to be part of what makes this country what it is. In no way do I want any of our provinces to separate. I realize the situation and history is completely different in Scotland. The two countries can't really be compared...by the way I've been to Scotland (way back in 1978) ..backed packed through Europe and the United Kingdom with a friend. Terrific lens by the way.
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SudokuNut
Jan 16, 2012 @ 4:24 am | delete
- I personally believe the countries which make up the UK stand stronger together than they would apart. I fear the consequences of full autonomy would far outweigh the benefits but then I'm an Englishman who has never walked in a Scotsman's shoes either so maybe its a risk worth taking. Every time the conservatives take power I bet this issue gets more support right? :)
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About AnnMackieMiller
Writer, photographer and Scottish lassie!
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by annmackiemiller
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