Science and God: The Faithful Sceptic

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Can Science and Spirituality ever be reconciled?

Scientific understanding and the religious beleif in God are generally seen as being wholly distinct at best, and at worst mutually exclusive. Indeed the scientific revolution in which our modern concept of science was born came about in large part due to an intellectual rebellion against the dogmatic Christian view of the world. I would like to use this lense to ask if they realy are natural enemies, or whether they could ever be friends.

An Interesting Quote

Here is a quote that I rather like, that is sort of the inspiration for this lense

"When Count Joseph de aistre, that grand and passionate lover of Logic, said despairingly 'The world is without religion', he resembled those people who say rashly: 'There is no God.'
The world, in truth, is without the religion of Count Joseph de Maistre, as it is probable that such a God as the majority of Atheist conceive does not exist." - The Key of The Mysteries, Eliphas Levi

So What I would like to know is this: is it possible that the idea that the concept of God is unscientific, and that the existence of God can therefore never play a part in our scientific understanding of the world, is based on a misconception on the part of science as to what the term 'God' actually means; or can Science and God never be reconciled?

Books By Eliphas Levi

Eliphas Levi wrote and co-wrote quite a number of books, but these are what I would reccomend as his best work
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Debate

Have your say, and move the debate forwards. This lense was created to look for answers, not to give them, and we need you to be part of that process. If you voted in the pole then tell us why; even a few brief words will help.

Could philosophy or science ever 'discover' the existence of God, or prove His existence?

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Yes, God could be part of our scientific understanding of the universe

LofgrenArt says:

Religious history and other available evidence shows God to be a central concept of meaning, formed to meet psycho-emotional, and social needs. Beyond that, one can only support the concept of a willfully intelligent "Creator", or "Higher Power", with speculation, assumption, and mythical stories. I voted "yes" because there are so many meanings contained in the concept we know as God - and we already have a term for the unknown.
Here's my related page http://www.squidoo.com/secular_religious_harmony

Muskrat_Books says:

The proof is all around you, but you must have the eyes to see and the "heart" to understand & accept. The brain simply makes up "the proof" to satisfy what the heart has already decided is truth. First you decide what you want to believe, and then you manufacture the support you need.

1soul says:

The irony is that they are one & the same! Scientists look at things through the "outward" observation. Religion attempts to identify the Source from an inner understanding or faith. However, the two are inseparable. God is science and science is God. Science observes the Effects. Religion recognizes the Cause.
And yet the Yogi or Mystic is the only path that unites the two! I've discussed the "reconciliation of science & religion" in a book called "Journey of the Soul: Day One" authored by Lateef Terrell Warnick and found at www.the1soulwithin.net or www.amazon.com

Allan H says:

The Proof of the existence of God is the ABSENSE of miracles.
Any "religion" that bases its existence on miracles is either the result of a misunderstanding, misinterpretation, or a misrepresentation.

SterlingHousePublisher says:

Nice lens you have here. You may be interested in "The Uncertain Believer: Reconciling God and Science" It addresses the skepticism and indecision that plagues those who no longer find it easy to accept the belief in the existence of a supernatural creator. http://www.squidoo.com/edwardcorreia

No, God is utterly unknowable to science

Earlystart says:

...forgot to share with you the lens where you can confirm my statement about Islam and science being in great harmony http://www.squidoo.com/1001-inventions
If you find what I am saying to be true, you might like this lens. Thank you,

Earlystart says:

For those who say religion and science are 'mutually exclusive' I say they don't know Islam. There is nothing that has been scientifically proven i.e. scientific or natural laws (not theories) that are in contradiction with the teaching of Islam. We say however, that we do not need science to proove God's existence, although it does make it easier for people to grasp the concept of God while knowing and understanding how our world around us works e.g. the order that exists in the natural world from the atom to the starts in the universe testify to the perfection and the All-knowing God - the Creator of all that exists. I would therefore invite you to check out Islam.

To me being and proclaiming that one is Atheist, is a sign that they have been thinking. A great number of people who subsribe to a religion do so mainly because of their parents, but only a few check and test the teaching they were born in to find out whether it makes sense. As such, as a Muslim, I believe that Atheists are closer to knowing God than those who blindly follow the faith of their forefathers. The evidence for this statement is the Muslim creed of faith i.e. the testimony of faith. The Atheist agrees and testifies to the first part of the testimony that is "There is no god", which really means the model of god that I have been given doesn't make sense to me. All there is left now is to discover the GOD, which all believers of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam, Christianity and Judaism, call Allah - in Arabic.

However, it is important to note that, Francis Bacon, the famous philosopher, has rightly said that a little knowledge of science makes man an atheist, but an in-depth study of science makes him a believer in God. Scientists today are eliminating models of God, but they are not eliminating God. If you translate this into Arabic, it is La illaha illal la, There is no god, (god with a small ?g' that is fake god) but Allah, the Source of all existence.
May Allah guide us all to the right path. Ameen.

Gorgon says:

this doesn't work. today science is just an abomination of philosophy(the love for wisdom) arisen from a perverted interpretation of the universe. arguing about it would be futile

izzy lomas says:

i think that god is a supreme being. god is and always will be undetected by science.

Robbert_Veen says:

Philosophy can, and has to my satisfaction. I think the old arguments by Thomas and Descartes, Anselm and hegel, to mention just a few, though not 'proofs' in the strict sense of the word, are still quite valuable to make Gods existence rationally acceptable.

 
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Is Scientific Materialism an Oxymoron?

Science and Materialism generally go hand in hand, and may sem to many people as if they are natural bed fellows. The attitude of science is often described by the analogy of the 'clockwork universe' - the idea that the universe can be explained entirely in terms of the interactions between physical bodies. And it is fundamental to the philosophy of science that we only accept the existence of things for which we have direct evidence. Therefore science is materialistic inthat it does not accept the existence of anything beyond the material world, such as, for example, the spiritual realms with which religion is concerned.

Given the clear relationship betwen science and materialism the assertion which I am going to make here may initially seem foolish, but stay with me and give me a chance to explain. I think that a strong case can be made that the concept of materialism is fundamentally unscientific, and that 'scientific materialism' is therefore a contradiction in terms.

This assertion is based on the same foundations as science itself- the philosophy of radical doubt, first put forward by Rene Descartes and later expanded upo by Schopenhauer. This extreme scepticism states that we should doubt everything that can be doubted, and only accept as true those things for which we have direct evidence. It was this philosophy whichn removed all assumptions, religious beleifs and dogmas and so on from the field of enquiry, thus establishing science as we know it. It is this radical doubt which establishes the certainty of scientific knowledge and distinguishes it from the speculations of philosophy and the mysteries of religion and spirituality

But it is also this radical doubt which should exclude materialism from the language of science. In the words of the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer:
"We do not know a sun, only an eye which sees a sun;
and we do not know an earth, only a hand which feels the earth"
in other words all of human experience consists of mental perception. The idea that there exists a material universe, independent of our perception, is purely speculation - dogma of science, if you like.
Not only is there no evidence for such a thing, but ther never could be any evidence for it. It is my assertion therefore that the whole concept of materialism is utterly antithetical to science, and that, as the title of this article suggests, scientific materialism is an oxymoron. What do you think?

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The Equinox

Full reprints of Aleister Crowleys famous self-published works

'The Method of Science, The Aim of Religion'
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Strange Science

The previous sections have been, I guess you could say, written as if they are looking in on science from the perspective of spirituality. For this next section I would like to reverse that, beginning with science and looking towards the dawn of the spirit on the horizon.

Quantum physics is a very strange science indeed - hence the title - and in many ways the worldview it suggests is closer to that of the mystic than the mechanic. The days of the 'clockwork universe', where science conceived of the universe as a giant machine are over, and the truth is much more interesting.

Here are a couple of quotes chosen to highlight how science is approaching the ground previously occupied by spirituality:

"In atomic physics the obsered phenomena can be understood only as correlations between various processes of observation and measurement, and the end of this chain of processes lies always in the consciousness of the human observer. The crucial feature of quantum theory is that the observer is not only necessary t observe the properties of an atomic phenomenon, but is necessary even to bring about these properties...
The fact that all the properties of particles are determined by priniciples closely related to the methods of observation would mean that the basic structures of the material world are determined, ultimately, by the way we look at this world; that the observed patterns of matter are reflections of patterns of mind" (The Turning Point, F. Capra)

"That this is so is one of the fundamental tenets of Eastern philosophy. The Eastern mystics tell us again and again that all things which we perceive are creations of the mind, arising from a particular state of consciousness and dissolving again if this state is transcended (as also gnostic christians taught - Ed. note)." - (The Tao of Physics - F.Capra). Hinduism holds that all shapes and structures around us are created by a mind under the spell of maya, and it regards our tendency to attatch deep significance to them as the basic human illusion. Buddhists call this illusion Avidya, or ignorance, and see it as the state of a 'defiled' mind.

Fritjof Capra Amazon

Fritjof Capra is a quantum physicist who has written a number of popular science books about the parallels between modern science and ancient spiritual philosophies, as well as on the profound philosophical implications of modern phyical science theories. Here are his best works, which I highly recomend for you to read.
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The Spiritualization of Science

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Proof of the Existence of God

A deeper look into the strange science of quantum physics

You would have to be a fool to try to summarize quantum physics in a couple of paragraphs, so it's a good job I am one.
We are all familiar with the classical view of the universe as being built up from tiny little building blocks of matter called atoms. But at the sub-atomic level this concept of fundamental units of matter begins to break down. It turns out that sub-atomic 'particles' are also capable of manifesting themselves as waves. The consensus interpretation among physicists say that these are waves of probability. This means that these entities do not actualy exist in any particular place or time, but only have varying tendencies to be in many different places spread out over the area that the wave occupies. This is called the wave-particle duality; don't try to understand it (it's just to weird for that), just accept that it is true.
And here is where it gets really strange: The only thing which makes a particle acquire a finite location, or momentum, is when it is observed. When you are not looking it becomes smeared out in a wave of probability, and if you look for this wave then you can measure it and record it, but if you look for a particle then the wave disapears and it becomes a particle instead. That is what was being refered to in the section above when Capra says "properties of particles are determined by priniciples closely related to the methods of observation" - it is called the 'collapse of the wave-function'.
Generally the philosophical implications of this are ignored by physicists, because if they are honest it doesn't make any more sense to them that it does to you or me. But this does raise an interesting question: As professor Stephen Hawking himself has written, this 'collapse to the wave-function' seems to suggest that there must be a conscious observer outside of the universe to collapse the whole wave-funtion and bring the universe into existence. Without this the universe could never have devoloped any finited, quantifiable characteristics. Hawking raises this issue as part of an argument for revising the conventional interpretation, but I would like to suggest something else entirely: Perhaps the conventional interpretation is correct, and perhaps quantum physics has already proven the necessity of the existence of god.

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Help us to find the top ten best popular science books by voting for your favourites or suggesting something we've missed.

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    Augadha May 16, 2011 @ 2:15 am | delete
    Sanatan Dharma is the oldest culture in the world, and there was a time when it was spread throughout the world. People can find swastika in every culture like the American Indians, Greece, troy, Italy, Russia and many other countries have this symbol. Look at the 108 symbols of god in Sanatan Dharma and their origin. Things will become very clear about the origin of humanity in this world. It is time to free ourselves from the lies and deception spread throughout the world about our culture.

    Dont forget, even today in Sanskrit and Hindi the words for Divorce and any other abusive words do not exist.
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