Are you thinking about converting your car to run on water? Are all the hydrogen kits a scam? Read this first.
The list is long. The names are many. They are all the same thing, the Water4gas, Water fuel, Hydrogen kits. Running your car on pond water from a fruit jar sounds kinda funny or even fun, maybe? I will tell you why this may or may not be a scam. I will give you reasons based on extensive field testing and the laws of physics how it may or may not work. I am not trying to prove anyone wrong or right I am just presenting my findings, a sound but debatable theory, and some solid empirical data to support my claims. If you have been researching this on the internet then you know how cruel some people can be when attempting to... admonish others. Not here! this is a hostile free nurturing site having a civilized input about a very interesting idea. This is a very controversial and heated topic on the internet.
Converting your car to a hybrid hydrogen or water car?. Assisting the burn of gasoline with hydrogen is really enhancing the burn of fuel with oxyhydrogen. It is actually an old technology that came from the invention of the the Gramme machine in 1869 by Z'enobe Gramme. It is repackaged and sold on the internet under many names and in many forms. If you look closely they are all basically doing the same thing, creating oxyhydrogen by electrolyzing water using current from your alternator and car battery. Please read on for an honest review. Go here for some sample plans if you want to tinker with oxyhydrogen. CLICK HERE FOR A FREE LIST OF ELECTROLYZER PLANS If you want to see an example of what they are selling go here Water4gas (click here) Most information like this may also be found on the internet in bits and pieces.
I do not recommend you purchase this book or others like it. if you are planing on installing it in a car newer than 1996. Or if you are expecting massive fuel savings. I will tell you why below in the OBDII section. This idea is alluring and romantic but the laws of thermodynamics, extensive lab testing, and field testing prove that it will not work. I will explain why below in the thermodynamics 101 section below.
It may work if you could create huge amounts of oxyhydrogen with very low current, say maybe with a pulsed high voltage signal like Nicola Tesla was reportedly attempting to do. Some say Stanley Myers who reportedly created a dune buggy that ran on water. He had borrowed Tesla's work in hydrogen production using alternating current instead of direct current. He was apparently successful in making it work well enough to run on-demand hydrogen. Stanley was shot in the head soon after he produced the dune buggy on TV. This gave birth to conspiracy theories that OPEC had him murdered.
I only recommend the book for experimenters, people who do not want to research the internet for all the information, and tinkerers who want to play with oxyhydrogen. I will provided enough information here and on my linked pages to make a simple electrolyzer using direct current with out purchasing any book.
Converting your car to a hybrid hydrogen or water car?. Assisting the burn of gasoline with hydrogen is really enhancing the burn of fuel with oxyhydrogen. It is actually an old technology that came from the invention of the the Gramme machine in 1869 by Z'enobe Gramme. It is repackaged and sold on the internet under many names and in many forms. If you look closely they are all basically doing the same thing, creating oxyhydrogen by electrolyzing water using current from your alternator and car battery. Please read on for an honest review. Go here for some sample plans if you want to tinker with oxyhydrogen. CLICK HERE FOR A FREE LIST OF ELECTROLYZER PLANS If you want to see an example of what they are selling go here Water4gas (click here) Most information like this may also be found on the internet in bits and pieces.
I do not recommend you purchase this book or others like it. if you are planing on installing it in a car newer than 1996. Or if you are expecting massive fuel savings. I will tell you why below in the OBDII section. This idea is alluring and romantic but the laws of thermodynamics, extensive lab testing, and field testing prove that it will not work. I will explain why below in the thermodynamics 101 section below.
It may work if you could create huge amounts of oxyhydrogen with very low current, say maybe with a pulsed high voltage signal like Nicola Tesla was reportedly attempting to do. Some say Stanley Myers who reportedly created a dune buggy that ran on water. He had borrowed Tesla's work in hydrogen production using alternating current instead of direct current. He was apparently successful in making it work well enough to run on-demand hydrogen. Stanley was shot in the head soon after he produced the dune buggy on TV. This gave birth to conspiracy theories that OPEC had him murdered.
I only recommend the book for experimenters, people who do not want to research the internet for all the information, and tinkerers who want to play with oxyhydrogen. I will provided enough information here and on my linked pages to make a simple electrolyzer using direct current with out purchasing any book.
Contents at a Glance
- Many marketers of this concept are using deceptive wording like "Water Car".
- Thermodynamics 101
- Ok so now you are a budding engineer and understand thermodynamics now what?
Many marketers of this concept are using deceptive wording like "Water Car".
This makes some assume the car will be running completely on water. IT IS NOT.
If you could run an engine on water you would need stainless steel IN your engine. Just some of the parts that would need to be replaced are pistons, cylinders, valves, rings, headers, exhaust well the last two could be ceramic.This is the only way a "water car" has ever "run" on water.===============================>
What they and most like them are actually selling are their version of, an age old technology.They use an electrolyzer to produce oxyhydrogen to enhance your fuel burn. Does it enhance your fuel burn? YES! but it still does not work or the gains are very marginal. See the laws of thermodynamics 101 below.
Thermodynamics 101
To make a long debate short, after the math (aftermath) and the dust has settled it all comes down to the alternator and thermodynamics..
The deception is that many believe the alternator has "wasted energy" and you are adding thermal energy to the system with oxyhydrogen. Any good electronic technician or mechanic should be able to tell you why the alternator does not produce or only produces negligible amounts of wasted energy. I will tell you why but not yet. I need you to fully understand the laws of thermodynamics first and then how an alternator really works, there is more to it than swinging wire through a magnetic field to provide current. Then you need to understand that you CAN add thermal energy to a system like with oxyhydrogen. The important distinction is HOW and WHERE you add this energy from.At what costs and from where are the important questions. Adding thermal energy from a storage system like with Nitrous oxide injection is completely different than producing oxyhydrogen on-board from an energy source driven by the energy source you are enhancing. A very exciting idea but sorry no cake for you, no free lunch and no perpetual motion machine, so says the laws of thermodynamics. There are some rebels out there. They are trying to prove "zero point energy". More POWER to them because if they do prove it the laws of thermodynamics are BUSTED and we will soon be visiting extraterrestrials at the edge of the universe instead of them visiting us ha ha.
A very good and simple explanation of thermodynamics is here:
Thermodynamics It is an easy read. It is very well written and informative.
Here is a small excerpt: "Thermodynamics is, from an engineer's point of view, the ultimate science. It explains the operation of the entire natural universe. That is what makes the study of thermodynamics so interesting, exciting, and relevant. So, with that introduction, let's start to investigate thermodynamics."
Ok so now you are a budding engineer and understand thermodynamics now what?
What people seem to not realize is the output AND input to the alternator are regulated.
It is amazing to me how much of this oxyhydrogen, "HHO, Watercar, Water4gas, Run your car on water", seems to stem from one man, Nikola Tesla. In 1888 he invented the rotating field AC alternator and Stanley Myers studied Tesla's work on hydrogen energy cells in an alternative energy college.This is over simplified to make my point more lucid. The alternator spins anyway while the engine is running so when you are not using the power it provides where does it go? Well basically it never was. First the output is regulated so you will not over charge and burn out the battery and maybe even fuses and wiring if you let it run all wild and free like a crazy squid eventually equaling the power of our sun and breaking down the strongest of dielectrics and insulators with its mighty current, I jest, let us move on.
Second, as the demand for more current is required by a battery to charge, or the cars electrical system if you are running five plasma TVs in the back seat, increases so does the output current of the alternator increase which in turn increases the demand on the electromagnets supplying the magnetic field the wire is swinging through. To meet this demand the wire needs to swing faster or the magnetic field needs to be stronger.
Since the alternator does not say "Hey you drive faster I need more power" the strength of the magnetic field needs to increase by increasing the regulated current to the electromagnets. We are almost full circle hang in there. Now the increase in the strength of the magnetic field increases the drag on the spinning coil or wire because the field is that much stronger, think of magnets lifting cars at a junkyard or Robocop2, wow I just dated myself.
This in turn increases the demand on the engine to turn that alternator pulley. The more oxyhydrogen you want the more current you need from the alternator. This is not even taking into account the cost in energy to convert forms or phases from liquid to gas or the increased drag on the alternator because of heat increasing from increased current demand. The hotter the wire the more it resist current flow. That is why they cool super conductors to extremely cold temperatures. That is your "wasted energy" the overheating alternator and the second law of thermodynamics increasing entropy the disorganization of heat. Well to be fair you would not waste that energy of dissipating heat if you warmed your hands over the hot alternator in winter after your perpetual motion car breaks down.
OBDII is this like having R2D2 from Star Wars in our car. Thermodynamics is not the only FORCE to be reckoned with.
Ok this is the short simple and sweet reason it would behoove you to test this oxyhydrogen enhancement in a 1996 car or earlier modle year.
If you are still a dreamer after being beaten up by thermodynamics my hat is off to youIn 1996: The OBD-II specification is made mandatory for all cars sold in the United States. This came with a standardized ECU (Engine Control Unit) closed looped with all the sensors to create feedback to control your engine like a system. The ECU is constantly monitoring and correcting for changing conditions keeping your fuel air ratio at an optimum that is approximately 14.7/1. Then you add a rouge element into the system like oxyhydrogen with a much higher optimum air fuel ratio of 34/1 by mass and the ECU thinks the engine is running lean and increases the duty cycle on the electronic pulses to your fuel injectors (basically opening the solenoids more often and longer). This then dumps more fuel into the cylinders wasting gas changing what is seen as a lean mixture back to optimum. This does not even include the fact that hydrogen in the mix affects the accuracy of the oxygen sensor. As you can see It would be easier for testing purposes to buy an old 1996 or later model car.
Then you say, "lets defeat the ECU". Yes, we could change the sensor inputs to the ECU or modify the sensor, or put our own ECU in with our firmware. Sure we could do that but lets take care of the first problem of deifying the laws of thermodynamics first.
Water electrolysis what is it?
What water elctrolysis produces has been called hydrogen, HHO,browns gas, green gas and is oxyhydorgen
Many keep calling it NEW technology when it is really reused technology, When Z'enobe Gramme invented the Gramme machine in 1869 electrolysis of water became a cheap method for the production of hydrogen.
Great Stuff on Amazon
Peak Oil Survival: Preparation for Life After Gridcrash
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Hubbert's Peak: The Impending World Oil Shortage (New Edition)
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Future Scenarios: How Communities Can Adapt to Peak Oil and Climate Change
Amazon Price: $9.60 (as of 12/18/2009)
Plan C: Community Survival Strategies for Peak Oil and Climate Change
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Cool high performance electric cars
When gas is just not getting you there fast enough
0-60 in 3.4 seconds is insane!
- National Electric Drag Racing Association
- The National Electric Drag Racing Association (NEDRA) exists to increase public awareness of electric vehicle (EV) performance and to encourage
through competition, advances in electric vehicle technology. - Tesla Motors
- The official site for Tesla Motors, makers of the Tesla Roadster, the high-performance electric sports car. Electric cars from Tesla Motors are developed with an emphasis on design, performance, and efficiency.
Is there anything electrifying on Ebay?
eBay may have some premade kits if you want to experiment.
I have not evaluated all of these but it is fun to see what people are selling.
Fetching new data from eBay now... please stand by
Some of the big boys have come to play in the water!
GE Global Research, GM, BMW, Ford, Honda,
Mazda, Toyota, and the list is growing daily.
The BIG companies trying to position themselves for big bang profit on hydrogen hybrids.
I think it beats the insane cost of replacement batteries Prius owners are goning to get SHOCKED with.
It is an exciting movement towards new possibilities . Below are some links showing fortune 500 companies that are working hard to make affordable hybrids..
- Ford Hydrogen Hybrid
- Popular Mechanics on Fords Hybrid.
Ford's Hydrogen-Powered, Plug-In Hybrid: New York Auto Show Test Drive - GE Research
- Alternative energy news award for GE's hydrogen on demand
- Honda Hydro Hybrid
- Carjunky news on Honda's Hybrid.
Honda to Roll Out Hydrogen Hybrid in 2008 - GM hydro Hybrid
- Many companies are confirming that Hydrogen is the fuel of the future!
Chevrolet has four hydrogen hybrid vehicles. - Chevy and Saturn play nice Hydro Hybrid for GM
- GM works on Chevy and Saturn.
Hydrogen-Powered Chevy and Saturn Hybrid On Display at ECOFEST - BMW Hydrogen Hybrid
- Popular Mechanics on BMW's Hydro Hydrogen
BMW Hydrogen-Powered 7-Series: New York Auto Show Test Drive - Toyota wants to play too.
- The Toyota FCHV Hydrogen Hybrid Vehicle is built upon the Highlander and based upon the Prius hybrid and new technology.
- Israel wanst a piece of the Hydrogen pie
- An Israeli startup, Engineuity R&D Ltd, claims it has developed and demonstrated a technology for on-board hydrogen production for use with a modified internal combustion engine.
Peak oil is the point in time when the maximum rate of global petroleum withdrawal is reached, after which the rate of production enters terminal spiral down ward like a crashing plane. The concept is based on the observed production rates of individual oil wells, and the combined production rate of a field of related oil wells.
It is important to note that peak oil is not about running out of oil, but the peaking and following massive reduction in the production rate of oil.
With the massive demand for oil still growing at a exponential rate it will drive the cost for oil to unbelievable prices.
If no other massive supply is found then we have reached peak production around the year 2005. With a 15% reduction in oil production that is predicted for the year 2015. This would increase the price per barrel to 2,750 dollars a barrel . This equates to $65.48 per gallon of gas!
It is important to note that peak oil is not about running out of oil, but the peaking and following massive reduction in the production rate of oil.
With the massive demand for oil still growing at a exponential rate it will drive the cost for oil to unbelievable prices.
If no other massive supply is found then we have reached peak production around the year 2005. With a 15% reduction in oil production that is predicted for the year 2015. This would increase the price per barrel to 2,750 dollars a barrel . This equates to $65.48 per gallon of gas!
(The price of gas reaching $65.48 per gallon is May 1, 2015)
So why do I have the water4gas book on here?
Because they promote a sense of experimentation and what could be.
Inventors and shapers of our world normally work at the boundaries of the believable often discouraged and lonely. History is not inevitable. If the Wright brothers had listened to scientists and not built the required airplane controls, man would not have flown for another ten or more years.BMW's sleek and sexy Hydrogen Hybrid========>
Ford was told the V8 engine was impossible. Edison opposed Tesla's alternating current and power distribution system. Inventions do not always happen because they are needed more often than not we learn to live with awkward machines like the automobile. Yeah I said automobile, if we were truly brilliant we would design cities so we did not need automobiles. Common people often shape our world with inventions that started in an independent thinkers garage. If Bell Labs had not invented the transistor, computers would still be running on tubes and people like Steven Wozniak and Steve Jobs would not have caused the personal computer revolution of the 1970s.Bill Gates would probably be an unknown. In the 1980s IBM managers did not even use computers. The Wall Street Journal printed that, "IBM had become like a music-publishing company run by deaf people."
After field-testing I am actually using the oxyhydrogen enhancement on a 1993 Jeep because I like the smooth acceleration but it still fails my standards for gas saving improvement. I also have just a bubbler, this adds water vapor to the intake, on a 2002 vehicle and my oil has remained clear and clean for six months so far, my MPG improved then tapered off, I am assuming from the removal of carbon in the engine.
The facts of the water4gas book, most everything below is primarily from the water4gas Ebook.
Decide for yourself this is what they claim.
WATER4GAS - EXECUTIVE SUMMARYWater4gas (click here for the book) is a technology based on splitting water on board a vehicle, and using the resulting gases not to drive the vehicle - but only to boost the efficiency of its combustion.
This is a Do-It-Yourself technology, specifically designed for beginners with no special tools required and on a very limited budge. A working system can be built at home with basic hand tools for $20-$100, installed in minutes and removed in seconds.
No modifications to the engine, computer or fuel injection systems, so any backyard mechanic can install it easily.
The technology is age old, over 91 years. All we've done is raise it from the dead and develop a simple structure based on low cost hardware. Although there is a myriad of hydrogen generating designs out there, CLICK HERE FOR A FREE LIST OF PLANS
Water4gas (click here for the book) is the simplest and also the safest for the beginner. The electrolyzer, bubbler and water reservoir have all been combined into one super-simple device.
Another advantage is the employment of coiled/spiraled electrode WIRES - rather than flat plates or spiraled plates. The magnetic vortex created by the coil assists water splitting, so we don't need as much power from the car's electrical system, thus simplifying the system even further and lowering its cost.
THE MAIN PROBLEM IS OVERSIZED FUEL DROPLETS IN THE MIXTURE. The Hydrogen, being such a small particle, hits a droplet, cuts it into smaller droplets and attaches itself to the smaller droplets. Now the finer, hydrogen-enhanced mixture, is capable of burning more thoroughly. Click the book below for more detail.
Drive your engine clean and help the eviornment.
Imagine that, a power source that is good for the eviornment!
On top of improved performance, the engine steam-cleans itself every day, and the resulting effect is smoother and quieter operation. One young lady was shocked when she checked her engine oil and was sure that her oil ran totally out. Actually what happened was that while she was expecting dark brown, dirty oil, the oil was actually so clean and transparent that she could not see it on the dip stick. Her 20-year-old car is as smooth now, with an electrolyzer as it was when she bought it 17 years ago.Another lady "complained" that she could not hear the engine running...but to her surprise the car was still moving along.
This technology is not capable of running a car on water alone. The aim is not to replace gasoline but to enhance it - and open the door and the mind to the possibilities of waterfuel technology.
With correct fine tuning we can double the mileage, rendering a new energy balance: half gasoline, half water. Very little water is used, in an economy car it's around 2700 miles per gallon of distilled water, together with 4-6 teaspoons of household baking soda as catalyst. We have demonstrated many times that the fuel consumption of a 4-stroke generator can also be cut in half with this technology.
Results will vary with loads and driving conditions. For ethical reasons we do not build up expectations for more than 10%-50% improvement in fuel economy, however there are daily success stories from experimenters who are seeing gains of 80%-100% in various vehicles.
For some, significant economy gains inspire us and we have an epiphany that something can be done about the rising gas prices.
All in all, Water4gas (click here for the book) is affordable. The idea is to guide the readers toward a mindset of an experimenter rather than a driver that takes things for granted. We want to teach that something can be done about gas prices, pollution and global warming, and hope many gladly take an active role and help to spread the word.
With the help of inventive and clever people like you, Water4gas (click here for the book) has emerged and evolved in one year from a small home-based business to become a global junction for water-fuel technologies, inspiration and leadership.
Oxyhydrogen production by Stanley Myers
This Volume of production is impressive and inspiring if it truly was done with low current.
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- Thundergas Thundergas Jun 15, 2009 @ 11:39 am
- Thank you!
I changed my information on this topic after some discouraging results. The initial results were very exciting, I thought for a moment that my mind was wrong and my heart was right. But, the laws of physics proved true again.
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- Jackwolf Jackwolf Apr 25, 2009 @ 8:39 am
- A great compilation of works on the alternatives,especially the water/fuel prospects
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- Thundergas Thundergas Apr 16, 2009 @ 11:20 pm
- Please rate my Squidoo lens at the top, be gentle I am new at this.
by Thundergas
I have over twenty years of experience in advanced electronic design, repair and testing. I have a lot of experience in automotive repair, modificatio... (more)
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