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Will the Church of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?
This is a hard thing for many Christians in the western world to accept. Like me, I am sure most of you have been taught that the Church/Bride/Saints/Believer's/Body/Elect of Christ would not go through the Great Tribulation. I simply accepted the pre-trib doctrine because it was frankly what I wanted to hear and I had never done an in-depth study on my own. I would bet most Christians have not really studied it objectively either.
A post-tribulation rapture just doesn't seem to fit in with the prosperous, comfortable lifestyles of contemporary western Christians. The lack of real persecution and hardship has led many to assume that this is the normal Christian life. But, according to Scripture; persecution, tribulation, and hardship, is the real "normal" Christian experience. Western Christianity will soon come to experience what most of the rest of the world's Christians have always known.
I have come to see through reading the scriptures very closely that the Bible does tell us VERY plainly that the rapture and the first resurrection occur at the same time which is at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation period which is the same time Jesus appears in the clouds at the last trumpet which is the seventh trumpet of Revelation.
As a matter of fact the burden of proving a pre-tribulation "catching-up" is really on the pre-tribbers because the scriptures such as Matthew 24: 29 VERY clearly tells us "AFTER the tribulation". In order to grasp a pre-trib timing you have to practcally do back flips through the Bible to understand their distorted reasoning because there is not one scripture that actually SAYS "before the tribulation" directly.
It was not until after around 1840 that "pre-tribulation" rapture started to be taught on a widespread basis because of a man named John Darby.
Whether true or untrue the story goes that a young teenage Plymouth Brethren girl (this is in Great Britian) is reported to have either had a dream of given a prophetic word or had a vision. It was then interpreted. This interpretation was circulated and Pastor John Darby then relayed it to C. I. Scofield who bought into it as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence this teaching became very widespread.
There are many articles that go into much detail about this story and there are as many conflicting reports about it. The bottom line is the pre-tribulation rapture became WIDELY taught AFTER around 1840. Prior to this time there is some evidence of this belief but this was only discovered after very much digging and research by the pre-trib camp to try and bolster their interpretation of scripture. The pre-tribbers want to try and show that this view WAS taught and believed prior to that time so they do not appear to have created a "new doctrine".
In fact throughout the history of the church there have been many beliefs that have come and gone as indicated by terms such as A-millennialists and Pre-millennialists. We now also have "Preterism" whose belief is that all Bible prophecy has already been fulfilled.
I am not going to go in depth about this part of the issue, so you may want to do your own research. I just want to show you the Scriptures and walk you through them so you can study them yourself. What Scripture says is what matters most!
If you look at the history of the church and Christianity in general thousands upon thousands have died and were persecuted for their faith including the Apostles of Jesus Christ. A pre-tribulation rapture does not in any way line up with God's pattern in Biblical history. It is just not sound Biblical doctrine with precedence.
You will see from the comments below that the passion people have on both sides of this issue is astonishing. I do not think that this is really a salvation issue. But it is going to be VERY helpful to be prepared to hear God's instructions for you when the world spins into choas if you have "A love for the truth"!
Please have an open mind and do an honest assessment of the Biblical evidence. I think this will give you a lot to think about and hopefully you will start to listen to the Holy Spirit with in you and not a "man".
Disclaimer from the author of this lens:
I am just a human and therefore I am not infallible. I try to represent the truth to the best of my ability and knowledge, but I am not above reproach. When in doubt, trust the word of God, not me.
When is the Rapture?
What IS the Rapture and WHEN does it occur?
Rapture, Harpazo, Parousia, Caught up, Catch up, Catch Away, Taken up, Caught Away
Here are the primary beliefs:
1-Pre-tribulation: Most popular and most taught by the churches- the teaching is that the rapture occurs prior to the start of the tribulation. This is also known to be called 'the secret rapture' because the belief is that Jesus comes secretly and quietly in the air to collect the saints who just disappear.
2-Mid-tribulation: Rapture at the mid point of the tribulation period. This view is hard to conceive because 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 says that Jesus does not return prior to the Antichrist being revealed. Then Revelation 13:5 states that the Antichrist rules for 42 months (3 1/2 years) and makes war with saints - Revelation 13:7. If the saints have been 'raptured' and are gone- who does the Antichrist make war with? Makes no sense.
3-Post-tribulation / Pre-wrath: This is basically the same timing. According to scriptue the rapture occurs at the conclusion of the 'great tribulation' and before the 'Day of the Lord' wrath - the 7 "bowls" or "vials" of God's wrath in Revelation 16:1.
The correct timing of the Rapture is clearly revealed by Christ in His Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24. It is then confirmed by Paul in his Thessalonian epistles and in his letter to the Corinthian church. The timing is also verified further by John in the book of Revelation.
Lets read through those Scriptures in the Bible to see what they really say.
Here we go: (This is the NIV translation)
Matthew 24:29-31:
"Immediately after the distress of those days (tribulation) the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.' At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."
****Please note that Jesus himself is describing His return and tells us clearly AFTER THE TRIBULATION with a LOUD TRUMPET CALL! He does not say he will come one time secretly only in the air and then a second time loudly! Does this sound like a 'secretive' or quiet event?****
After that occurs...
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
"For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive, and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air; and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
****Paul is describing the return of Jesus. Does this sound like a secret, quiet event? Paul then goes on to describe the first resurrection -"dead in Christ"- and the rapture: those who survived the great tribulation and are still alive after the great tribulation will meet the Lord in the clouds.****
1 Corinthians 15:51-55:
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory." "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
****Paul is describing to the Corinthians the change that takes place to the body at the rapture and the resurrection of the dead. He clearly says AT THE LAST TRUMPET. "The last trumpet" has to be the trumpet sounded by the seventh angel in Revelation 11. This is the END of the tribulation period when the world will now be ruled by Jesus. Revelation 11: 15-18 is describing the last (seventh) trumpet.****
Then John further reveals in Revelation:
Revelation 20:4-6:
"I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."
****John clearly says THE FIRST RESURRECTION. Refer above to 1 Thessalonians 4:16 where it says: "For the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.." This is the first resurrection being mentioned. It is important to understand that the scriptures tell us the rapture and the first resurrection occur AT THE SAME EVENT which is when Jesus returns to earth which occurs only ONE time with a loud trummet call!****
We are not to be confused about this. We are meant to know so we can be spiritually prepared to go through tribulation.
"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction (Antimessiah / Antichrist).He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9)
****Paul is telling the Thessalonians to be calm because Jesus has not already come and will not be returning prior to the Antichrist (lawless one, son of perdition) being revealed.****
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness," (2 Timothy 3:16)
As you just read Scripture tells us everything we need to know. We do not need to be confused or misinformed about the timing of the rapture. Scripture breathed into our hearts by the Holy Spirit will take away all confusion.
READ YOUR BIBLE and pray to the Lord for wisdom and discernment. God gives us His word because He wants us to listen to HIM not man.
The Churches are misleading the flock!
The State of the Churches Prior to the Tribulation
The churches are mis-leading the flock!
It sure sounded good and it certainly was what I WANTED TO HEAR!
This is what the bible says about that:
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables." (2 Timothy 4:3-4 NKJV)
My Dream About the Church Violating the Flock
I became very confused because I felt the Holy Spirit telling me to prepare for tribulation.
Most ministers and churches are primarily teaching 'don't worry about it, you'll be raptured out of here'. I think that as a whole the churches are teaching "Christianity Light" and many Christians today have "Americanized" Jesus and the truth of Biblical Christianity. I like how Andrew Strom of Revival School said it; "the west has invented a kind-of "American Jesus" to suit our self-centered, "me"-focused lifestyle. They point out that today you mostly hear of a Jesus who exists to make you "happy" rather than holy, a Jesus who is always a "friend" but never a Judge, a Jesus who does not any longer hate sin or demand repentance, but only wants you prosperous and 'blessed'. This is a Jesus that utterly suits our selfish Western mindset, but is found nowhere in the Bible."
After much prayer and asking God to give me the truth about this HUGE discrepancy. The Lord did give me the answer through the wisdom and discernment of the Holy Spirit and by reading the scriptures over and over and understanding what they really say. There will be NO PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE. Christians today are being taught what they want to hear in order to keep them in the church!
Here is what the Bible says about the state of the churches and those who lead the flock in the end times:
"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first,..." (2 Thessalonians 2:3 NIV)
"The prophets prophesy lies, the priests rule by their own authority,and my people love it this way. But what will you do in the end?" (Jeremiah 5:31 NIV)
"Israel's watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark;they lie around and dream, they love to sleep. They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding;they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain". (Isaiah 56 10-11 NIV)
"These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, 'In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires'.
These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit." (Jude 1:16-19 NIV)
The book of Jude is about the Apostasy of the church.
The majority of Christians are taught and believe without any question that the rapture will occur prior to the tribulation period that Jesus warned us about in Matthew 24:21. Therefore many will be caught completely off guard when things start to go down hill VERY FAST!
The spiritual preparation that is necessary requires confession and repentance of all sin. Ask the Lord for purification of your heart and spirit. And a level of faith that is beyond anything that you may currently experience. God wants us to rely completely on Him for our protection and provision. Read Matthew 6:25-34.
The potential for many to loose faith when we start to go through tribulation is great. In addition most Christians do not study Bible prophecy nor do they spend much time understanding the deceptions of our enemy, Satan. If you have not studied what the Bible scriptures warn about in regards to the deceptions of the Antichrist and the beast system then the potential for deception is enormous!
This scenario lines up with the prophecy of a "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4.
I urge anyone who is reading this and believes in pre-tribulation rapture to please pray about this issue and read the scriptures again.
Don't let this happen to you:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6 KJV)
YouTube vids about the Rapture and Tribulation of Christs Followers
Links to help you study the Rapture
- What Must Happen Before The Day Of The Lord
- What Must Happen Before The Day Of The Lord?
- The Last Trumpet - Post-Trib Research Center
- Biblical evidence for the post-trib rapture & progressive dispensationalism. Exposing false pre-trib claims, and answering pre-trib arguments.
- Ken Raggio teaches The "Post-Tribulation" Rapture
- What we believe has everything to do with how we prepare.
- Ken Raggio teaches: When is the Rapture?
- Will the saints of God go through the great tribulation?
- Ken Raggio teaches about The Saints in Tribulation
- So God won't let his children suffer? Read the Bible again.
- THE POSTTRIBULATION RAPTURE
- THE POSTTRIBULATION RAPTURE -Scriptural evidence that the rapture will occur after the 70th week of Daniel.
- CORRIE TEN BOOM and the RAPTURE
- Corrie Ten Boom on the Rapture of the Church.
SUMMARY:
CORRIE TEN BOOM IN THIS LETTER BELOW COMMENTS ON THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE VIEW WHICH IS POPULAR TODAY. AND SHE RELAYS A WORD OF WARNING TO US IN THE WEST FROM THE SUFFERING YET VICTORIOUS UNDERGROUND CHURCH IN CHINA. - Preaching a pre-tribulation rapture weakens the church
- Preaching a pre-tribulation rapture weakens the church BY Grant Swank
- Debunking the Pretribulation Rapture Myth
- Debunking the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Myths
Pastor Michael Brigmond Apostolic Lighthouse Church, Kissimmee, FL - Insight #78 -- The Rapture
- INSIGHT INTO BIBLE PROPHECY - THE RAPTURE
by David Vaughn Elliott
They tell us planes will fall out of the sky. Automobiles will careen and crash. Surgeries will be halted mid-way. Communications systems will... - Deceived, and Being Deceived
- You've probably heard that the pretribulation rapture view was published by a Rev. Morgan Edwards in 1788 and also by a Medieval writer called Pseudo- Ephraem 1000 years earlier.
- At the Roots of Pre-Tribulationism
- Why do good folks cling to a pre-tribulation rapture, and where did the idea originate?
- The Harpazo of the Bride of Christ
- This page is a Bible study focusing on the scriptures speaking of a catching away of the church to meet the Lord in the air when He comes back for His bride.
- THE AMAZING PARALLELS OF END TIME SCRIPTURES
- The Amazing Parallels of End Time Scriptures
By John Aggson Sr.
Please check out how all these Scriptures fit together so perfectly. Like pieces to a great end time puzzle, they go together to form an even greater overall picture: - Margaret McDonald's Vision in 1830
- The ever increasing controversy over the origins of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine has spawned a thousand lies and slanders from those who oppose this doctrine.
We Must All Carry our Own Cross
Why Does God Want His Saints to Experience Tribulation?
I have listed some scriptures below that clearly tell us that as a disciple of Jesus, which we all are if we believe in Him, we will suffer tribulation because of our belief in Him. His Apostles all suffered for Jesus and so shall we during the 'great tribulation'. Matthew 24:21 "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."
Here are some scriptures as evidence of saints in tribulation (KJV):
Romans 5: 3-4
"And not only [so], but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope:"
Matthew 24:9
"Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."
Acts 14: 22
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, [and] exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation [to] enter into the kingdom of God."
Deuteronomy 4:30-31
"When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, [even] in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God [is] a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them."
John 16: 32-33
"Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."
Revelation 2:10:
"Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast [some] of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."
Revelation 7:14:
"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."
Jesus is coming for a SPOTLESS Bride
Jesus is coming for a body of believers that is without spot or wrinkle
God wants His true elect to come into complete obedience and faith. It will take an unprecedented level of trust and faith that God will protect and provide for you.
The scriptures tell us that the goal of God is for us to be conformed to the image of Christ. Can any of us honestly say that about ourselves at this point in time?
Matthew 10:38:
"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Ephesians 5:27:
"That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
Matthew 25: 32-33:
"And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth [his] sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
Matthew 13:30:
"Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
Mark 8:38:
"Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
Matthew 5:8:
"Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God."
Recommended Sermons
- David Wilkerson- Sermons | World Challenge
- Sermon Media Center
- Paris Reidhead Bible Teaching Ministries - Home
- Paris Reidhead - Bible Teaching Ministries
P.O. Box 556
Denton, MD 21629 - SermonIndex.net audio sermons: Paris Reidhead
- Audio Sermons of Paris Reidhead
- Home | HeartCry Missionary Society
- HeartCry is a missionary society with one great and overriding passion: that God's Name be Great among the Nations (Malachi 1:11) and that the Lamb receive the full reward for His suffering (Revelation 7:9-10). We find our greatest purpose and constant motivation for missions in God, His commitment
- Paul Washer Audio Sermons
- Paul Washer Sermons!
Books about the Rapture and the Tribulation Saints
Prewrath Rapture of the Church
Amazon Price: $19.98 (as of 07/06/2009) 
End Time Delusions
Amazon Price: $10.19 (as of 07/06/2009)
The Rapture Question Answered: Plain and Simple
Amazon Price: $18.00 (as of 07/06/2009)
The Sign
Amazon Price: $19.71 (as of 07/06/2009)
Before God's Wrath: The Bible's Answer to the Timing of the Rapture, Revised and Expanded Edition
Amazon Price: $17.05 (as of 07/06/2009)
Blog Posts from Google about the Rapture and the Tribulation
These blog posts are randomly selected and may not represent my beliefs or the truth
- The Reading Room: THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE « Political Byline
- (2) Mid-tribulational (also called Pre-wrath Rapture), meaning the church-age saints will go through the first half of the Tribulation. (3) Post-tribulational, meaning the church-age saints will go through the entire Tribulation period. ...
- Pre-Tribulation Rapture
- Jesus addresses His first century disciples vs. 2 present day believers vss.5-8 tribulation saints who receive Christ after the Rapture vs.. 9-13 29-31 amp the Jewish nation during the tribulation vs.. 15-31. ... Luke 1240 nbsp nbsp nbsp WHAT SCRIPTURES PROVE THE PRE-TRIBULATION RAPTURE I Thes.59 for God has not appointed us the Church to WRATH but to obtain salvation deliverance by our Lord Jesus Christ that whether we wake or sleep we will live together with Him.nbsp ...
- Tribulation or Rapture – Which? « Sola Dei Gloria
- The teaching of a pre-tribulation Rapture is clear and indisputable.? But he quietly affirmed that I was wrong and emphasized the truth concerning the Last Trump. Of course, I was not convinced. I almost ridiculed the very idea of such a possibility. ... This first descent, it is said, will be for the purpose of removing the Church from the world, and will occur before the Great Tribulation under Antichrist. This they call ?The coming for His saints? or ?Secret Rapture. ...
- Prophecy Overview 2009 – Part 6: The Rapture and Great Tribulation ...
- Mid-trib and Post-trib viewpoints take away from Jesus' meaning and intent because there are prophecies in the Bible that can allow for a day count to fulfillment. If we were looking for a mid, post or pre-wrath rapture we would be watching for the Antichrist and not for the .... 25:52-53 ?and the graves were opened and many bodies of the saints which slept rose and came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the Holy City, and appeared unto many.? (KJV) ...
Tell me what you think- You do not have to be a member of Squidoo to leave a comment
Gordon D Gharis wrote
Study the Jewish/Messianic Holy Days. I believe, as shown at www.amightywind.com, that there will be two Raptures. The first will be "Pre-Trib", it is called the rapture of the Bride of Christ "YAHUSHUA" (JESUS). It is for those, within the Church, who are "without spot or wrinkle". Those who are walking in Love, Obedience, Humility, Truth, and Holiness. Daily repenting of sin, as necessary. Learning to hate sin, and love Righteousness. And, not all of the Church is the Bride of Christ YAHUSHUA. The Second Rapture will be "Mid-Trib". It is the Rapture of "the Wedding Guests". It will consist of those Saints who "get their act together", as it were, during the Tribulation and make themselves READY. The Parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25:1-13. The first 5 Virgins were wise and ready for the Announcement that the Groom is on His way. The other 5 Virgins, who were foolish, were not ready, and missed the Grooms Coming. They missed the First Rapture, but they could make the Second one!
Posted May 06, 2009
Steve Coerper wrote
I agree with some of your conclusions, but disagree with others. It is true that there will be a "rapture event" AFTER the tribulation, but that does not preclude a similar event beforehand. Check out http://www.rogershermansociety.org/pentecost.htm for another view. I would be honored to have a dialog, so we can correct each other's misconceptions. But quickly - if there is to be a pre-trib rapture, I expect it before June 1st. Blessings - Steve
Posted April 26, 2009
SemperFidelis wrote...
Blessed by a SquidAngel today!
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~ Colleen :o)
Posted April 23, 2009
skizzle wrote...
Who was Jesus talking to in Matt. 24? His disciples. How about in Matt. 23:36 when He was talking to the Pharisees and said "All these things will come on this generation!" Jesus answered His disciples in Matt. 24:9 and said "Then they will hand you over for persecution, and they will kill you. You will be hated by all nations because on My name." In verse 15, "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation..." You see Jesus telling His disciples, not us, what is going to happen in there generation. Matt. 16:28 "I assure you: There are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom." There were some standing there who would see the second coming. Matt.10:23..."For I assure you: You will not have covered the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." A.D 70 It is Finished!! Praise God
Posted April 01, 2009
ideadesigns wrote...
Please join our group: Everything Biblical and Christian.
Posted March 28, 2009
Polly wrote
Why is it that many have OPINIONS about pretrib rapture history, but almost no one gives up FACTS BACKED UP BY SOURCES AND PAGES? One happy exception is the historian, endorsed by many evangelical scholars, whose Google articles include "Famous Rapture Watchers" (how the greatest Greek experts interpreted Rev. 3:10, for example), "Deceiving and Being Deceived" by D.M. (demolishing the claims for Morgan Edwards and Pseudo-Ephraem), and "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts" (showing how one school chops off the real "when" of the catching up and subtly substitutes its own "when"!). I want to see the faces of traffickers in that school when the Lord allows entire American cities to be destroyed one of these days (either during the big Rev. 16 quake or before that time). Polly
Posted March 19, 2009
Arlette wrote
Satan would love for us to continue in murmuring about whether or not the Rature is pre, mid or post just to take our eyes off the word of God. Frankly, I am starting to not care when it is. My biggest concern now is that He does not come as a thief in the night. Just make sure your lamps are full like the wise virgins. If we keep on complaining who's right or wrong...Jesus will come as a thief in the night with our lamps empty. Woe to us foolish virgins.
Discern the times... look up for your redemption draweth nigh.
God Bless
Shalom
Posted March 08, 2009
C. Fultz wrote
FYI - mid-trib is no longer one of the three main views. Prewrath has taken over that position and continues to grow for good reason - it addresses the primary hang-up issues on both sides (pre- and post-). it keeps the rapture as part of the 2nd Coming (parousia) when Christ stays forever. It also makes the rapture occur at an unknown day and hour. - The REAL CHALLENGE: we all must take as I did 15 yrs ago - forget reading End Times books - read no other book than the Bible until you are done - make a list of all relevant passages and sort by most detailed,on-the-topic, sequence oriented on one side and them ambiguous on one side and then those in the middle. Since God's Word is coherent - the most detailed side should line up. They do - I wrote a book on this. But forget that - just follow the principal - you'll love it. Take the Challenge!
Posted February 22, 2009
Sally wrote
The NEWEST Pretrib Calendar !
Hal (serial polygamist) Lindsey and other pretrib-rapture-trafficking and Mayan-Calendar-hugging hucksters deserve the following message: "2012 may be YOUR latest date. It isn't MAYAN!" Actually, if it weren't for the 179-year-old, fringe-British-invented, American-merchandised pretribulation rapture bunco scheme, Hal would still be piloting a tugboat on the Mississippi. roly-poly Thomas Ice (Tim LaHaye's No. 1 strong-arm enforcer) would still be in his tiny folding-chair church which shares its firewall with a Texas saloon, Jack Van Impe would still be a jazz band musician, Tim LaHaye would still be titillating California matrons with his "Christian" sex manual, Grant Jeffrey would still be taking care of figures up in Canada, Chuck Missler would still be in mysterious hush-hush stuff that rocket scientists don't dare talk about, and John Hagee might be making - and eating - world-record pizzas! To read more details about the eschatological British import that leading British scholarship never adopted - the import that's created some American multi-millionaires - Google "Pretrib Rapture Diehards" (note LaHaye's hypocrisy under "1992"), "Hal Lindsey's Many Divorces," "Thomas Ice (Bloopers)" and "Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)," "LaHaye's Temperament," "Wily Jeffrey," "Chuck Missler - Copyist," "Open Letter to Todd Strandberg" and "The Rapture Index (Mad Theology)," "X-Raying Margaret," "Humbug Huebner," "Thieves' Marketing," "Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal," "The Unoriginal John Darby," "Pretrib Hypocrisy," "The Real Manuel Lacunza," "Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism," "America's Pretrib Rapture Traffickers," "Pretrib Rapture - Hidden Facts," "Dolcino? Duh!" and "Scholars Weigh My Research." Most of the above is written by journalist/historian Dave MacPherson who has focused on long-hidden pretrib rapture history for 35 years. No one else has focused on it for 35 months or even 35 weeks. MacPherson has been a frequent radio talk show guest and he states that all of his royalties have always gone to a nonprofit group and not to any individual. His No. 1 book on all this is "The Rapture Plot" (see Armageddon Books online, etc.). The amazing thing is how long it has taken the mainstream media to finally notice and expose this unbelievably groundless yet extremely lucrative theological hoax!
Posted February 21, 2009
Modres wrote...
The author of this article makes a number of fatal mistakes, most of which are created by not paying attention to the context of the Scripture in question.
Rather than go point by point, here is a great article (that I did not write) which deals with the common mistakes made by the author of this article:
http://www.dyeager.org/blog/2008/03/matthew-24-rapture.html
Here is one I did write concerning the origin of the Rapture doctrine (and it's NOT Margaret MacDonald either):
http://www.squidoo.com/Rapture-1
If one looks seriously at the Olivet Discourse, Matthew, Mark and Luke must be considered together, because while the apostles/disciples ask Christ questions, Christ does not answer them in order and all the questions are not answered in each gospel. It is IMPERATIVE to allow Scripture to interpret Scripture.
Posted February 16, 2009
chris wrote
in reply to American Right on brother! That is to say AMEN! Is it not written in effect that God does not wish to come to us with a rod and a whip, but instead in a spirit of gentleness. Hence closely watching and eagerly awaiting His coming by the signs thereof. We are to be imitators of God. Do you recall how much rebuking Jesus did? Why? Did it make Him feel like a big man on campus? No. Instead it was because He deeply cared about us...ALL OF US. As humans we inherently have a genetic disposition to deceit; the propensity to believe we are so right, only to turn out so wrong-I would point to the apostle Paul to understand this phenomena. Each of us must work out our salvation with fear and trembling, knowing the righteousness of men is as filthy rags to the Lord; that all the combined wisdom of men is as foolishness to God. Like Jesus said: "Ask, seek and knock"-the door will be opened and true wisdom revealed. Come out of Babylon (confusion) my people says the Lord. Love is key.
Posted February 15, 2009
Modres wrote...
in reply to American
With all due respect, may I please take a moment to caution you about something? You said: "I prayed and prayed about it and asked God to give me wisdom and He revealed the truth to me."
You are now convinced that your position is the correct one. Great. What about all those people who ALSO prayed and came to another conclusion?
What about other doctrines? Instead of studying to rightly divide the Word, people ask God to reveal to them what He asks us to find out in His Word. Because you believe God has given you His announcement on this area, there is nothing else needed for you.
Mormons say the same thing. Jehovah's Witnesses say the same thing. Your "arrogance" can actually keep you from learning because you are convinced that you are now right. Therefore, men with greater knowledge, who know the original languages, yet do not agree with you are wrong. There is something wrong about that. You have not arrived, brother.
Posted February 14, 2009
Modres wrote...
in reply to American
If Paul believed as YOU believe - that the Rapture will not occur until AFTER the Tribulation, he would have spent a ton of time helping the Thessalonian believers to prepare for the upcoming horrors of that 7-year period. He would have also said that the folks who died are blessed because they wouldn't have to go through it.
The Church is not appointed to God's wrath. Biblically speaking there is NOTHING that needs to now occur prior to the Rapture. Nothing. You've taken a section of Thessalonians and without carefully understanding the nuances of the language and verbiage have decided that that one section refers to the END of the Tribulation period.
Sometimes in Scripture, TWO verses (one following the other), can signify a time period separated by THOUSANDS of years. This is called the Law of Double Reference and Zechariah 9:9-10 shows the first coming AND the 2nd with NO TIME GAP indicated in the text at all.
Posted February 14, 2009
Modres wrote...
in reply to American
Because you NOW believe that your Pre-Trib Rapture position was faulty means little. I can go through and punch holes in every one of your comments related to your current position.
You have taken so many things out of context, it's pitiful really.
"If what you are inferring were to be true then why did God reveal so many thousands of prophecies through His Prophets in the Old Testament? Prophecy would then be unreliable and we know that it IS reliable. "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev 19:10. Your argument is without merit."
Um, no it isn't. There is NOTHING in the OT referring to the Church at all for instance. Nothing. My comment though was that Paul would ABSOLUTELY have taken the time to explain what that "Last trump" was referring to. He would also have taken the time to discuss the coming Tribulation if the CHURCH was going to go through it. He didn't. He spent his time talking about the Rapture.
Posted February 14, 2009
Modres wrote...
in reply to American
We can argue about the Rapture from now until it actually happens and you know what? Our discussion will have absolutely NO impact on its timing because it's already predetermined.
You asked me if I have "asked and sought God to reveal the truth to you or to confirm what you believe to be true about the timing of rapture?"
Of course, and I believe He has done that. In fact, MANY people with respect to MANY doctrinal positions fall back on "I believe God has revealed it to me" which essentially means that you cannot be wrong.
Why would the Holy Spirit take the time to REVEAL something to us that is already revealed in His Word? IF a person properly exegetes His Word, the truth becomes apparent. It has nothing to do with whether or not you consider me to be humble or arrogant. What is has to do with is STUDYING to show yourself approved by God. Paul's point is that the more we study His Word, the more PROPERLY we "divide it."
Posted February 14, 2009
American wrote...
Modres, Let me ask you a question. Have you ever actually SINCERELY asked and sought God to reveal the truth to you or to confirm what you believe to be true about the timing of rapture? I used to believe in a pre-trib rapture also, but I kept receiving doubts in my spirit through the power of Hoy Spirit. So I prayed and prayed about it and asked God to give me wisdom and He revealed the truth to me. Please don't get caught up in man's arrogance and pride about an issue before humbling yourself before God and seeking His wisdom about it. That one act will change your life and the way you allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through the truth. I know for a fact that God hates us to argue about doctrine. So I don't want to argue, but to encourage you to go deeper into God Himself and seek His Divine Revelation. It will change your life!
God bless!
In Christ! American
Posted February 14, 2009
American wrote...
in reply to Modres
"Revelation was written years after Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. They would have NO knowledge of John's reference to the Trumpet."
But my friend in Christ, the Lord of all, Jehovah God knows everything and He through the power of the Holy Spirit ordained every word written in the Bible. Therefore man's timing and what may have been known by these men at the time they wrote it is irrelevant. God wanted US to know it! He wants us to be prepared for great tribulation. If what you are inferring were to be true then why did God reveal so many thousands of prophecies through His Prophets in the Old Testament? Prophecy would then be unreliable and we know that it IS reliable. "For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Rev 19:10. Your argument is without merit.
Posted February 14, 2009
Modres wrote...
The Sheep and the Goats parable has NOTHING to do with the Church. Nothing. It has EVERYTHING to do with how the nations treated Israel DURING the Tribulation.
A proper understatnding of Prophetic Scriptures SHOULD give the believer the unction to live a pure life for Christ. The Rapture as a doctrine is NOT incorrect just because people THINK that it's an "easy out" from the Tribulation. It is correct because that is what is taught in Scripture.
We do not throw out salvation by grace alone, through faith because some use it as an excuse for licentious living. That does not negate the free gift of salvation. Likewise, because some think they will escape God's wrath (and the Church is never appointed to God's wrath), they can live any way they want. That's garbage.
If studying prophetic Scripture and looking for the coming of Christ does not purify our hearts, there is something wrong.
Posted February 13, 2009
Modres wrote...
"The early church fathers taught that the church would go through the tribulation. In fact it was not until after 1835 that "pre-tribulation" rapture started to be taught because of a man named John Darby. The concept was manufactured because of the dream of a young teenage Plymouth Brethren girl. She told her Pastor, John Darby about her dream who then relayed it to C. I. Scofield who bought into the dream as revealed truth. Scofield placed this pre-tribulation rapture notion as a footnote in his popular Bible, hence the spread of the myth."
Man, I am SO tired of reading about Margaret MacDonald! This is UNTRUE. The early church was Premillennial and Pre-Trib. Do the research about Margaret MacDonald instead of parroting someone else who wrote an article that was published on ezines!
What about the Pseudo-Ephrem? What about Bishop Victorinus? What about other pastors PRIOR to Darby who wrote and published articles about the Rapture? Unbelievable...
Posted February 13, 2009
Modres wrote...
"Please note that Jesus himself is describing His return and tells us clearly AFTER THE TRIBULATION with a LOUD TRUMPET CALL!"
You are incorrectly connecting this trumpet call with the one spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. Why? Revelation was written years after Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. They would have NO knowledge of John's reference to the Trumpet. Paul is likely referring to the "last trump" like the one that occurs during the Feast of Trumpets. Note that Paul does NOT explain the "last trump" and it is because the Thessalonians would have already known what he was talking about.
The idea that EVERYONE will hear the "loud trumpet" is also not in line with Scripture. Why is it difficult to believe that ONLY the Church will hear the trumpet and the call of the archangel? Read through the book of Acts and tell me how many times angels appeared, opened gates, broke chains and the only people who noticed were believers. Only believers will hear the trump.
Posted February 13, 2009
Modres wrote...
"Please note that Jesus himself is describing His return and tells us clearly AFTER THE TRIBULATION with a LOUD TRUMPET CALL!"
You are incorrectly connecting this trumpet call with the one spoken of by John in the book of Revelation. Why? Revelation was written years after Paul wrote to the Thessalonians. They would have NO knowledge of John's reference to the Trumpet. Paul is likely referring to the "last trump" like the one that occurs during the Feast of Trumpets. Note that Paul does NOT explain the "last trump" and it is because the Thessalonians would have already known what he was talking about.
The idea that EVERYONE will hear the "loud trumpet" is also not in line with Scripture. Why is it difficult to believe that ONLY the Church will hear the trumpet and the call of the archangel? Read through the book of Acts and tell me how many times angels appeared, opened gates, broke chains and the only people who noticed were believers. Only believers will hear the trump.
Posted February 13, 2009
Modres wrote...
The main article here is full of problems unfortunately. The Bible clearly teaches that the Rapture WILL occur and it will occur PRIOR to the Tribulation.
The Tribulation in some places is referred to as Jacob's Trouble. The entire emphasis of the Tribulation in Scripture is directed toward Israel, not the church. For those who believe that Israel is now the Church, it then makes sense that it would be seen that the "Church" would go through the Tribulation. This is simply not the case.
It's interesting though that you would think Paul would have taken the time to explain the Tribulation to the Thessalonians, but instead he focuses on the Rapture. The believers at Thessalonica were in SORROW for the already dead. IF the Tribulation was AHEAD of them, they would not have been in sorrow. Paul is not preparing them for THE Tribulation, but for the Rapture.
Christians DO have tribulation in this life, but they will NOT experience THE Tribulation.
Posted February 13, 2009
American wrote...
in reply to h2o Thanks for your comment. About a year ago I read Ronald Weinlands book and could only get about 1/3 through before I realized through the power of the Holy Spirit that he is a false prophet if there ever was one! He now claims that he and his wife are the two witnesses of Rev 11. Please people- ask God for wisdom and discernent! It is very important in this hour. Jesus warned us we would face much deception! Here are the searches for your reading and discernment:
http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-msgr&p=ron%20weinland%20false%20prophet&type=
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ronald weinland false prophet&btnG=Search
Praise the Lord!
Posted January 20, 2009
h2o wrote
I asked god one day a few weeks ago to show me the truth. He lead me to (THE RESTORED CHURCH OF GOD). Look it up and see what you think. I find it wise to keep an open mind, how else can you ever find the truth? We all have been decieved by satan from the begining. They have alot of information, that you may have never heard before.Oh and look up (RONALD WEINLAND) GODS FINAL WTNESS.
Posted January 19, 2009
Elev8_baby wrote
I have read the scriptures that are argued by some to show pre-tribulation rapture.
They argue that, because we, as believers, are not appointed to wrath. That we must somehow miss, the peroid of time when God pours his wrath upon the earth.
I have always thought, "If it happens that way-great. But, the scriptures clearly show that many have and will suffer in order to be partakers with Christ. Not because of God's wrath, but for his glory!
So just because wrath and judgement come to the earth, doesn't mean that we won't have hard times because of it. I think it means that the judgement is not against us.
Besides, What if you could help one person, during the tribulation come to know God? What if God would be willing to use you for his kingdom? Wouldn't that be worth suffering for a short while?
Would you choose to be there whenThese are very exciting times! I don't think I want to miss it
Posted January 09, 2009
American wrote...
in reply to Fellow follower of Christ
Blessings and thanks for your comment. I want to express the following: It is an absolute necessity to be filled with the Holy Spirit continually. Pray for this daily! ALL MUST HAVE the "Full Armor of God" on at all times in these days. Eph 6:10-18. Pray for this daily! In addition all believers must become "Intercessors" praying for their loved ones to come into the fullness of their relationship and knowledge of Jesus Christ and for the binding up and casting out of all demonic spirits that are bent on destroying you and your family! Get out of your diapers you who claim to serve Jesus and walk in YOUR AUTHORITY in Jesus!
In Christ, American
Posted December 17, 2008
Fellow follower of Christ wrote
When I was little I would have dreams and visions. Dreams of battle and at the end God would interven and the vitory would be his. I've had many spiritual dreams And I would have to agree with the author of this lens. God speaks to me daily on events that are going to occur in our world and times. And it getting rough to live in this day without the govern of the holy spirit guidiance in our daily walk. especialy with our children. How do we guide our children in this dark world. We are controled by two spiritual forces whether we want to beleive it or not. Each person is control on every step we take. It controled by God or By Satin.
The world better get in check into who leads them. This world is not our world. Its not our eternal world. Its that world we are going to whom ever controls us. We need to decide which world to we want to live. Going Gods ways means rules. Its his house and there are rules. Satan has no rules lets just have fun. No rules Please. Where R U GOIN.
Posted December 16, 2008
A Believer of Christ Jesus wrote
Brethren, Please listen up!! This is so important. I believe it is not really relevant for us to worrying about whether Christ is coming back post/pre/one-third tribulation or whatever.
The main aim for any christian is to become one with Christ, develop that loving and close personal relationship with him as is God's intention. Pray daily and ask God to help you to live according to his word and work hard and on reading the true word of God.
We must be ready in Christ so that at any time he comes we can immediately be drawn to him.
Lets not be distracted by this debate so as not to loose the real focus of being with the King of Kings!!
Simply put, just live for Christ Jesus!! Amen. May the true God of Isaac, Jacob & Abraham be with you both now and forever more... AMEN!!
Posted November 16, 2008
